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  • From: John Ronning <ronning AT ilink.nis.za>
  • To: Biblical Hebrew <b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
  • Subject: Re: Translations and Arian Bias
  • Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:06:45 +0200


Dan-Ake Mattsson wrote:

> Jon,
>
> <snipped irrelevancies about Athanasius>
> Your statement that what is at stake is "whether the term "firstborn"
> necessarily involves the idea of a creative process." is a pseudo-question,
>
> and it has not been voiced by Rolf or Wes or by anybody else.

You and Wes evidently both did not read some of Rolf's messages. E.g. from
12 March -
"If 1:15 is translated literally as "the firstborn of all creation", we do
not need
"other", just as in the clause "the fig and all trees" because we know that
the fig is a tree."

I.e., according to Rolf firstborn means something that is part of the
creation, thus
necessarily refers to some creative process. This is hardly a
pseudo-question, but
the core of the arian argument.

>
> <snipped re. Rom 8:29, which was well enough answered by others>
>
>
> The question in Colossians 1:15 is simply whether PRWTOTOKOS is used in
> another meaning than it is used in all other cases in the LXX and in the NT
> - namely as "firstborn", "the one who is born first". Your argument about
> Psalm 89:27 is irrelevant as to the meaning of PRWTOTOKOS.

Since "firstborn" in Ps 89:27 does not mean "born" at all, much less "born
first,"
perhaps you can expand on why this point is irrelevant to Col 1:15. I'll ask
my
question again, which you avoided: Did David become God's "firstborn" by (1)
appointment long after he was "born," or (2) by some creative process?


>
> <snipped> In Colossians 1:15, the pattern of Athanasius is followed by many
> commentators and translators; one tries hard to show that PRWTOTOKOS is
> used with
> the meaning "one who is standing over" or "one who is before". The problem
> is
> however,
> that PRWTOTOKOS is never used in one of these meanings,

How is "firstborn" used in Ps 89:27?

> and the reason why another meaning than the literal one is sought is
> theology, one
> has
> decided beforehand that Jesus is not one of the group of creatures.

Are you suggesting that Col 1:15 says that Jesus came out of the womb of God
the
Father's wife before the rest of the creation did? Or that Jesus came out of
the womb
of the creation before anything else did? Which do you choose as the "literal
meaning"?

>
>
> If we therefore use PRWTOTOKOS in the only *meaning* attested in the
> Bible, namely "firstborn",

You beg the question of what "firstborn" means, making your argument circular.

> then Jesus is "the firstborn of all creation".
> Jesus is not shown to be a creature by arguing that "firstborn" necessarily
> involves the idea of a creative process", but simply because he is the
> firstborn of the group of creatures,

Try that reasoning with the phrase "the God of Israel," or "the God of all
flesh,"
which would make God part of Israel or part of the human race. Obviously you
have to
go back to the argument which you began by dismissing as a pseudo-question,
or you
have no argument at all.

> just as he is a brother because he is
> the firstborn among many brothers. What suggests he is a creature,
> therefore, is KTISEWS and not PRWTOTOTOKOS, the role of PRWTOTOKOS is to
> show that he is one ("the firstborn") of the group of KTISEWS. it is quite
> thought-provoking that those showing the socalled "Arian bias" take
> PRWTOTOKOS in its ordinary
> literal sense, while those who are not biased try with all kinds of
> arguments to avoid the literal sense.

I doubt you can find any commentator of any persuasion that takes Col 1:15 in
its
literal sense (see above).

By the way, trinitarian translations such as KJV and NASB don't have any
problem
translating Col 1:15 literally "firstborn of all creation." It's not a
problem if you
let Ps 89:27 into your thinking. Take the genitive and the concept of
"firstborn" as
in a few verses later:
"Christ is the head [arche] of [i.e. over] all principality and power."
Quite like Ps
89:27.


Regards,

John Ronning







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