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  • From: Peter_Kirk AT SIL.ORG
  • To: b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu
  • Subject: Re[2]: Historiography and Peter
  • Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:56:09 -0500 (EST)



Well, if I look I can find many datable passages referring to
Melchizedek which are not from the 2nd century BC but are later (for a
start, look at Hebrews). Is that relevant? Yes, because it shows that
a reference to Melchizedek in one document is no evidence that other
references to Melchizedek are contemporary. And as far as I can tell
that is the only evidence you have for dating Genesis 14 and Psalm 110
in the 2nd century rather than at any earlier time. (OK, you spoke of
Hasmonean priest-kings, but then David appears as a priest-king in 2
Samuel 6, also 8:18, and there is good evidence surely for
priest-kings in the patriarchal period as traditionally understood).
Whereas there is good linguistic evidence for these passage being
earlier.

As for a monotheistic Moses, the presence in Egypt in the 5th century
and in Judah in the 8th century of syncretistic polytheistic Jews is
quite irrelevant. Here is a version without ifs: There were
near-monotheists in Egypt in and around the time of Akhenaten. There
exists a narrative stating that a (near-??)monotheist from Egypt
(named Moses) led a group of slaves out of Egypt, at an uncertain time
which may have been a little before or a little after the time of
Akhenaten. This narrative is to this extent confirmed in its
compatibility with the history of Egyptian religion.

If you want further explanation of my approach to history, look back
at my posting "Re: Unloading the Burden" of 11 Feb.

Peter


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Historiography and Peter
Author: mc2499 AT mclink.it at internet
Date: 16/02/1999 17:24

<snip>

There is little that I can see that is circular about the notion that *all*
our datable references to el elyon are in the second century BCE. If you have
means to prove this wrong, please do so. Have you also got datable sources
that use Melchizedek beyond those from the end of the second century?

<snip>

>and now assuming
>disproved monotheism in Moses' time. Why?

The Hebrews at Elephantine who were in communication with Jerusalem saw
nothing wrong with their polytheism. The building at Kuntillat Ajrud in
southern Judah from the eighth century BCE was a Yahwistic polytheistic
sanctuary. Yahweh in his divine council in the midst of the gods is
definitely not monotheistic.

<snip>

>Anyway,
>something close to monotheism is by no means improbable for Moses, if
>he was raised in Egypt not long after the time of Akhenaten.

I hope you don't if your way through life completely Peter. But let me give
you a few ifs as it seems this is something you can appreciate: if the
Egyptian Moses was an extension of the tribal leader Moses, it is most
likely that the extension was developed when some of the exiled Hebrews
fled to Egypt: it was some time after that that Egyptians started
speculating on the Hebrews and their connection with the Semitic Hyksos and
their expulsion. This seems like a prime time for Hebrew mercenaries --
many Hebrews ended up in the service of the pharaohs (both native and
foreign) as soldiers. This of course would be the right sort of conditions
for the development of a phrase like the Yahweh of Armies. But enough
speculation...


Ian





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