Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Rolf Furuli <furuli AT online.no>]

Randall Buth wrote:


>rolf wrote:
>> Ex 8:14 is conative because the priests *tried to* bring forth gnats
>...
>> none of your examples above are conative.
>
>we probably should have started with your own examples:
>
>ex 8.14: the priests actually did their magic acts and completed all their
>activities. that is one reason why the Greek translator was happy with the
>aorist. they acted (vayya`asu), they executed their magic.
>this is not a true conative.
>
>thus, ibn ezra:  vayya`asu xen = "they struck the dust of the ground".
>[aramaic targum translated with suffix tense, of course.]
>
>jer 37.12 is not conative but inceptive.
>jeremiah actually started out on his journey. which is why the LXX used
>aorist. this is common in biblical hebrew narrative with movement verbs.
>see below for NT aorist examples.
>
>[by the way, your arabic illustration qaatala is a suffix tense(!), though
>we would both argue 'lexicalization' if getting technical, no? 'he
>fought/=tried to kill' and irrelevant to aspect questions.]
>
>on my examples:
>2sam 4.8 "he tried to (suffix tense) kill him" ... (but didn't)  is as
>failed an attempt as one gets. of course, that lexicalizes the concept
>'tried to'.
>
>since definition problems seem to arise,
>please send
>ten examples of prefix tense verbs that are conative
>(not vayyiqtol, because of the 'inceptive aorist')
>and i'll give you ten examples of veqatal conative.
>
>i'll accept five.
>
>meanwhile, the NT:
>
>john 4.3 'and they went away to galilee'
>aorist .
>but they didn't get there just then, since they were delayed in samaria.
>this is the idiom that is occurs in the hebrew bible and explains jer
>37.12.
>matt 14.26 'jesus came (aorist) to them', but he didn't actually arrive
>then. peter did some footwork out towards jesus' direction first. then they
>went to the boat.
>luke 15.18,20 'i will go to my father . . . he went to his father (aorist).
>(but his father saw him before he arrived and ran to him first)
>luk 9.56-7 and they went (aorist) to a different village. and while on the
>way someone said ...
>
>do you like the texts with the aorists at luke 9.49? 'they (tried to)
>prevent(ed) him...'
>or H11.4, 'by faith Abraham offered [perfect] isaak


>
Dear Randall.


There may of course be differences in interpretation regarding conative
situations when they are grammatically signalled instead of being lexically
signalled by the use of the word "try to". That is the reason why
imperfective verbs always are used - to make the signal as clear as
possible.


Conative examples with yiqtol:


Deut 13:6 "try to persuade you" or "entice you"  The SWT was clearly not
successful.
Job 21:34 "How then do you try to comfort me in vanity?" They did not
comfort Job.
Psalm 139:18 "If I should try to count them"
proverbs 1:10 "If sinners try to deceive you"
Song of songs 2:7 (3:5; 8:4) "Do not try to try to awaken or arouse love
until it pleases."

One conative example with wayyiqtol and one Aramaic example with a participle:

Gen  19:11 "and they struggled (tried to) find the door" wayyiqtol.
Dan 2:8 "you are trying to gain time" Peal participle

Either you have misread the text of Luke 9:49 or you think of another text.
The verb translated "tried to prevent" is an imperfect (thus being
imperfective) and not an aorist. This is what should be expected.
If you look into the Archives of b-greek, you will find my comments on
Hebrews 11:17 (not 11:4). I suggest that the perfect be taken in the
meaning "By faith Abraham as good as offered Isaac".


Regards
Rolf

Rolf Furuli
Lecturer in Semitic languages
University of Oslo