Biblical Hebrew Forum

[yochanan bitan <ButhFam AT compuserve.com>]

rolf wrote:
> Ex 8:14 is conative because the priests *tried to* bring forth gnats
...
> none of your examples above are conative.

we probably should have started with your own examples: 

ex 8.14: the priests actually did their magic acts and completed all their
activities. that is one reason why the Greek translator was happy with the
aorist. they acted (vayya`asu), they executed their magic. 
this is not a true conative. 

thus, ibn ezra:  vayya`asu xen = "they struck the dust of the ground".
[aramaic targum translated with suffix tense, of course.] 

jer 37.12 is not conative but inceptive. 
jeremiah actually started out on his journey. which is why the LXX used
aorist. this is common in biblical hebrew narrative with movement verbs.
see below for NT aorist examples.

[by the way, your arabic illustration qaatala is a suffix tense(!), though
we would both argue 'lexicalization' if getting technical, no? 'he
fought/=tried to kill' and irrelevant to aspect questions.]

on my examples:
2sam 4.8 "he tried to (suffix tense) kill him" ... (but didn't)  is as
failed an attempt as one gets. of course, that lexicalizes the concept
'tried to'.

since definition problems seem to arise,
please send 
ten examples of prefix tense verbs that are conative 
(not vayyiqtol, because of the 'inceptive aorist') 
and i'll give you ten examples of veqatal conative.

i'll accept five.

meanwhile, the NT:

john 4.3 'and they went away to galilee' 
aorist .
but they didn't get there just then, since they were delayed in samaria. 
this is the idiom that is occurs in the hebrew bible and explains jer
37.12.
matt 14.26 'jesus came (aorist) to them', but he didn't actually arrive
then. peter did some footwork out towards jesus' direction first. then they
went to the boat.
luke 15.18,20 'i will go to my father . . . he went to his father (aorist).
(but his father saw him before he arrived and ran to him first)
luk 9.56-7 and they went (aorist) to a different village. and while on the
way someone said ...

do you like the texts with the aorists at luke 9.49? 'they (tried to)
prevent(ed) him...'
or H11.4, 'by faith Abraham offered [perfect] isaak

erroso
randall buth