Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Lloyd Barre <barre AT c-zone.net>]

Dear Greg:

Compare

"Isaiah said this when he saw his *glory*, and his words referred to Jesus."

with

And they cried out to one another in this way,
"Holy, Holy, Holy is Yahweh Sabaoth.
His *glory* fills the whole earth!"


Isaiah's vision of Yahweh's glory is much more naturally related to the
temple vision that to messianic predictions.  He *saw* his glory.  In
addition, the allusion to portions of Isaiah 6 in the previous verse leave
no doubt that Isaiah's temple vision is being alluded to.  As for your
cross-referencing, I am not quite convinced that the diverse writings of
the Bible are so systematically related to one another as you suppose.

It also occurs to me that we are on NT territory with this discussion.  We
should take of the list should you think the topic is not yet exhausted.

Best regards,

Lloyd




<< Dear Lloyd:
 
 There is no such identification at all in this verse.
 
 Please articulate your view for detailed consideration.
 
 Regards,
 
 Greg Stafford>>
 
 Dear Greg and All:
 
 I don't have a Greek NT, but the Jeusalem Bible translates,
 
 "Isaiah said this when he saw his glory, and his words referred to Jesus."
 
 When did Isaiah say this.  Isaiah 6 quoted in v. 40.  Whose glory is
 revealed there?  Yahweh's.  Whose words referred to Jesus?  Isaiah's.
 
 Regards,
 
 Lloyd >>



Dear Lloyd:

I am a bit surprised that the above has persuaded you to make this connection.
Allow me to offer a few additional thoughts for your consideration.

In John 12:37 it is said that although Jesus "performed many signs before them
[that is, the crowds that stood about], they were not putting faith in him."
Then in verse 38 John refers to their response (or lack thereof) as
fulfillment of Isaiah 53:1. 

In verses 39 and 40 we are told why Isaiah 53:1 was fulfilled in them: "He has
blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see
with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I
should heal them." This is a reference to Isaiah 6:10. 

Finally, in verse 41 John tells us, "Isaiah said these things because he saw
his glory, and he spoke about him." Isaiah spoke about Jesus, the Messiah, in
Isaiah 53, when he foresaw the future glory of the one who would "come up like
a twig," and "like a root out of waterless land." (verse 2) Isaiah also saw
the glory of "the arm of Jehovah" in that he would "bring a righteous standing
to many people," "and for the transgressors he [would] interpose." (verses 1,
11-12) Thus, it seems quite clear that John 12:41 refers primarily to Isaiah's
Messianic references in chapter 53, whereas John 12:39-40 explains why the
crowds surrounding Jesus "were not able to believe."

Again, it seems reasonably clear that the things Isaiah said about Jesus are
found in Isaiah 53, as cited in John 12:38. Verses 39-40 are an explanation of
why the crowds were not able to believe. If verse 41 has any reference at all
to Isaiah 6 it certainly would not be to identify Jesus as Jehovah, given the
fact that the OT and NT present Jehovah as the God of Jesus, the Messiah.
(Micah 5:4; Rev. 3:12) The book of Isaiah also makes a sharp distinction
between Jehovah and his Messiah.--- Isa. 11:1-11.

Rather, the context of Isaiah 6 does seem to have some Messianic significance.
In verses 6-7 there could be some prophetic significance in the atonement of
Isaiah's sins, perhaps foreshadowing the redemptive act the future Messiah
would perform to remove the sins of many (compare Isa 53:11). Also, there is
the reference to the one Jehovah would send as a messenger to his people,
which could also be a foreshadowing of the role that Jesus would eventually
have, in the outworking of Jehovah's purpose. In Isaiah 6:8 Jehovah says, "Who
will go for us [lanu]." This indicates that someone other than Jehovah was
present in this vision, and that someone may very well have been understood by
John as the Lord Jesus Christ, in his prehuman glory as the "Word."---Joh 1:1;
compare Joh 17:5; Heb 1:3.

Regards,

Greg Stafford