Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

permaculture - Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?

permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: permaculture

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
  • Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 20:13:29 -0700

One more thought - it's very possible we could have charged $50 more and
everybody who is coming still would have come. That is something we can look
at for next time. 

At this point, I do hope that people will look at the whole picture of the
decisions we were making and forgive us for any judgment calls that could
have been improved upon. I'm sure there are more than one of those! 

I am praying and hoping that in spite of any imperfections, that we all show
up at the convergence holding the intention to make some meaningful and
important progress - for our own needs and careers certainly, but also for
the greater issues that exist in the movement that we can best address
through collaboration and collective wisdom and resources. 
 
 Koreen Brennan


On Sunday, August 3, 2014 10:13 PM, loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>
wrote:






Toby- you bring up good points, but I think you may be missing an important
one.  This is not about scarcity, it is about reality.  $150 is a lot of
money to some people, especially when you consider travel to get to the event.

I was one proponent of keeping the cost of the event low enough so that folks
from "the rest of the Americas" could join (especially after the way
overpriced Cuba IPC).  This event is not just for well-to-do USAliens, it is
the NORTH AMERICAN Permaculture Convergence.  There are other countries in
North America other than the USA and Canada, "the rest of them" (ie Mexico)
will sadly not be equally represented because of- you guessed it- money. 

And what about the rest of the PC movement, the other 99%?  Those who are
just getting started, or those who are not as fortunate as some of us, who
may have travels expenses that far exceed the cost of the event- so in effect
it becomes a $1000+ affair?  Many in the PC movement deliberately avoid
making money (reduce the need to earn) because they are not into supporting a
degenerative, fiat based currency system.  Also, many are on the frontier,
are pioneers in their area (geographically) or field, who are waiting for the
rest of the world to catch up.  For this reason they may not earn what they
deserve, or will soon.

It is easy for us to type on our $1200 computers how we should be compensated
for our work in order to obtain a yield (ie pay off the computer).  Is money
the only yield here?  What about inspiring the up and comers?  What about
sharing what works and what doesn't with your peers?  What about tithing?  I
can think of dozens of other yields that will be harvested that far outweigh
the speakers fee.

I am honored to be a speaker at this event.  I am honored to do it for free. 
I get paid very well with my work as a permaculture designer and teacher, and
I am able to subsidize my trip to the NAPC with this income.  I am glad to
support this historic event in this way.

Furthermore, not everyone can garner as high a speaker fee as you, Toby.  Not
that you don't deserve it, its just not equal.  Also, many of us don't get
called to speak at these events because we haven't written books or are not
very good at promoting ourselves.  Its all good, this is just reality. 
Though not yours, obviously. 

I think PC Voices was a great event for the PC movement- taking it to the
masses, the mainstream, the capitalist patriarchal model- the ones who need
to get this info.  But PC Voices was HEAVILY subsidized by John Roulac as Wes
noted, without his help it probably wouldn't have been such a success. 
(Perhaps we could have had some sort of sliding scale for the NAPC also.)  I
personally am glad the PC Voices was successful, and that the PC Elite was
able to make some good cash speaking.  But to me the NAPC is not about the
elite, is is about the other 99%. 

I hate to phrase it this way, but I do see PC becoming the model of
capitalism that Scott warned us of- where a small group of the regular
speakers are getting 99% of the speaking gigs and design jobs, while the
other 1% subsidize their PC career with outside work.  To me the NAPC is
about sharing this wealth- of giving those who normally don't get the calls
up on stage.  (I know several speakers who have A LOT less field experience
than me, who are full on teaching because of a few good career moves.  I am
not bitter because I have enough, I am just making an observation.  Is this
what we want to create for PC?)

I have a solution/suggestion.  For those who feel that they should be paid to
speak at the NAPC, why don't you put a donation jar at the podium, or pass
the hat during your talk?  I am sure nobody would object.  I tell you why I
wouldn't- because I would feel like a dick unless I really needed it. 

How much do you need in order to feel motivated to speak?  This to me is the
real scarcity situation going on here-  feeling like you cannot afford to
speak for free, for fear of denigrating your own work.  I was delighted to
see Darren Doherty, one of the world's leading PC Designers, take the stage
at the last minute during the IPC Conference in Cuba- for free.  This to me
shows that he has the 3rd ethic firmly rooted in his heart.

Furthermore, I suggest we take up donations for the organizers during the
event, who apparently are doing a lot of this work for free- they deserve
this support more than speakers IMO.  This was one unintended consequence of
keeping the event fees so low (agreed not the best design, but this is the
first in a series hopefully so there are always better next times).  I agree
that we could have charged another $50 and most people wouldn't have felt the
pang, but why not save that for those who can voluntarily donate to the event
organizers, those who can afford it?  Like you and I, Toby. 

I am good for $50.  Heck, lets make it $100.  How's that for abundance
consciousness?

Loren Luyendyk
(805)-452-8249
Accredited Permaculture Teacher, PRI-AUS
ISA Certified Arborist WE-7805A
www.sborganics.com
www.surferswithoutborders.org
www.globalpermaculture.com




> From: lakinroe@silcom.com
> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 14:32:34 -0700
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
>
> hi
>  i agree with Toby i agree but what scale would be fair for each speaker
>that presented , my understanding when NAPC was first organized/conceived 
>that they did not want taking heads , it would be a series of panels/circles
>that you could or could not be part of if you attended, that has changed i
>think,
>
> i love Permaculture Voices and supported Diego from the start with hand
> outs are our events and also at many festivals. I felt with needed a
> professional conference for PC. I knew he would be sweating it as PC
> community waits till the last moment to register. John Roulac of Nutiva
> save the day by subsidizing  a  low fee that drew the large numbers in the
> end. The end result is that Diego was able to have a successful event and
> now is willing to host this next year.
> It could of failed and never happen again as many PC events get starved
> because of lack of support. the International Permaculture Conference
> /Convergence is always facing a lack of financial support for all the same
> reasons Toby has mentioned.
>
> I agree everyone need to be part of sharing economy and yes share resources 
> to create a economy that supports the change
>
> more later thanks Toby
> wes
> ps at Santa Barbara Permaculture Network we have always paid PC teachers
> and travel expenses since our first event in 1997 . 
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:09 PM, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Aug 1, 2014, at 12:55 PM, Michael Pilarski via permaculture
> > <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Can you imagine how much it would cost
> >> if we had to pay each one of them what they currently get paid for
> >> giving a
> >> workshop or keynote speech!?  . . .  We don’t want to set up a
> >> hierarchy. Come because you are excited about participating ... not
> >> because you
> >> are getting paid.
> >
> > Since you mention it publicly, I gather that a number of presenters have
> > asked if they can be compensated for their work. (Warning: rant ahead,
> > and Skeeter, this isn't personal--since I've gotten, like, 8 copies of
> > this notice, it's repeatedly hit one of my hot buttons.)
> >
> > What if a corporation or plantation boss had said, “Can you imagine how
> > much our products would cost if we paid our workers fairly?” Permies
> > don’t get a pass on that just because we’re doing good work; corporations
> > think they are too. It’s also a guilt-tripping argument, which is kind of
> > embarrassing.
> >
> > Here's the answer to the question: Given the expected 500 attendees,
> > another $50 would generate $25,000. More than enough to pay everyone
> > well, including the hard-working organizers. Since the fee structure of
> > NAPC already has a set of $50 tiers, one more would have fit in fine.
> >
> > People aren't asking to be paid just to get money. It's hard work to put
> > a talk together (takes me 40-80 hours for a 90-minute talk), and if our
> > work yields no return, we've designed a bad system that burns us out.
> > Remember "Get a yield?" Not to do so is unsustainable. We should be
> > modeling abundance, not scarcity. "Here, come be a permaculturist, stay
> > broke, live in scarcity, and get nothing for your hard work but good
> > feelings!"
> >
> >
> > The price of NAPC is ludicrously low. $150 for 3 days of presentations,
> > workshops, awesome conversation, meals, and camping? That’s just nuts!
> > For $50 more, NAPC could have compensated everyone well for their work
> > and had broader appeal. And at a regular conference rate, we could have
> > funded the projects we'll conceive there. I know a lot of people who
> > aren’t attending because it’s just the usual folks, camping in a field,
> > like every convergence.
> >
> > It feels like the guiding principle for NAPC is “let’s spend as little as
> > possible so we can charge as little as possible.” That’s a brutally
> > limiting design ethic. Imagine how much richer the event would be if the
> > ethic was, “How do we make this as awesome as we can, pay everyone fairly
> > for their work, and still find ways for everyone to afford it?”
> >
> > One of many ways is how Permaculture Voices did it: A block of very
> > expensive, full-price tickets (which sold well because not every
> > permaculturist is poor!), blocks at half and one-quarter price, and a
> > large block of free tickets. They had 650 very diverse attendees, and a
> > presenters budget of, I estimate, over $100,000 to pay 70 speakers very
> > well. There are many ways to design it to be affordable for all, beyond
> > “do it as cheap as we can.”
> >
> > When 500 people come together, they can generate a surplus that will
> > provide enough for everyone. How did NAPC miss that resource? (I assume,
> > since NAPC isn't paying others for working, that NAPC staff, too, are all
> > doing this for free).
> >
> > It’s not that there is a “hierarchy,” as the letter puts it. There is
> > true diversity in skills, experience, and income. To deny that reality,
> > to not take advantage of it, is poor design.
> >
> > Please, let’s get over the idea that everyone in permaculture is poor,
> > that there is no money out there, that this is a world of scarcity. What
> > kind of a vision to hold is that? This is a huge limitation for
> > permaculture that we have to break out of!
> >
> > Maybe we need a session at NAPC on how to break the scarcity mentality of
> > permaculture.
> >
> > Toby
> > http://patternliteracy.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> > elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> > nature-compatible human habitat

>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible
> human habitat

                       
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
-- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for
synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human
habitat
>From toby@patternliteracy.com Mon Aug 4 01:42:06 2014
Return-Path: <toby@patternliteracy.com>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 20217)
id EADD321A4C; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 01:42:06 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
mailman1.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,LOTS_OF_MONEY,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C1621A42
for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
Mon, 4 Aug 2014 01:42:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [172.16.42.4] (c-76-102-58-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net
[76.102.58.203])
by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mreueus001) with ESMTP (Nemesis)
id 0MFabr-1XHDId0dEr-00EhqI; Mon, 04 Aug 2014 07:42:03 +0200
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\))
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
In-Reply-To: <BLU176-W26C0E295AE9ADC1E4A4026A8E20@phx.gbl>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 22:41:58 -0700
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <96B091D6-0C27-4750-B636-4F6FD148C327@patternliteracy.com>
References: <1406922906.88876.YahooMailNeo@web142306.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>,
<578433D6-C8B8-4524-83DB-439FCE38BE94@patternliteracy.com>,
<6E7843ED-14E9-4322-903A-64EF1FC41881@silcom.com>
<BLU176-W26C0E295AE9ADC1E4A4026A8E20@phx.gbl>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6)
X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:yhPiB3euHcDPhtEfYc8ork3UyiXkMLKx0TFhvQDCMNn
ViLYxwti4fQdWfi8AE2r9oJNDO28zz0yV1kuDsW7JLwWrIeTNJ
QvEeeYFjXidF5ReNZmfPX/8TTX9uqCJPNex5uVXsw0CeYNVODN
VSImEAhZlkmYn2mcigqD1aA/lsemnbYfj+xIH0kJTjrQzN5K1m
AAd4c9NhLynvdsh9QvnkfATepK+i8cVsPUWZ9UQ5RRV/fT5rFG
v/FjLSd4N9WPg/85Xtv1LQaXP8ki6H2FoVvzPH3Bu4tuK4Ayhd
pBwspl7n+fNXUHjH3GgfYtwUolqEm1AJaXgaebSxdBlPAjcy3y
rL4LhsuZXzejDLrqnXj3It9Fwu0c/D1PbPHS2BnrjaqlOyuy8F
Fzw8jvPyZgv45ihuQikY0zEDau3hC6+1dASubject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC:
Scarcity?
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1
Precedence: list
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 05:42:07 -0000

Loren, Koreen, Wes, et al--

Thanks for the thoughtful remarks, and Koreen for your constant openness.

Of course $150 is a lot for some people. Those are the people that we make
sure get in for free or really cheaply, and pay for their travel. My point
was that there are ways to design so it is affordable for everyone, without
defaulting to "must charge lowest price possible." There are many models out
there, and what's more, we as brilliant designers could have designed a new,
even better model. It looks like you are still only seeing "must all be
cheap" or "must all be expensive," or "could have charged a bit more," and I
invite you to move off that whole axis, go 3D. So, find donors. Get matching
grants. Have multiple tiers. Ask people to pay what they usually pay for
really great conferences. (Bioneers is $495 without meals or lodging; that
"elite" would kick down a bunch!) Get the affluent to fund half a ticket for
someone else. Ask who has air miles for travel. Charter some buses and pick
people up. Raffle some free tickets for $10 a chance. Do a fundraiser. Give
work trades to help the organizers. Have a bake sale. Post a picture of a
kitten and say you will kill it if people don't send money. There are a ton
of ways! Isn't there's a permaculture principle about doing important things
multiple ways? So we coulda combined a bunch of them.

I did not ask to be paid for presenting at NAPC. It was obvious there was no
budget for it. I only charge when people can afford it and there's enough to
share. I also help arrange so the income will be there. I've actually
thought about all the stuff you mentioned, Loren; I charge a sliding scale
right down to zero, consider a great deal of other yields besides money, love
that I am lucky enough to help my partners prosper, and try to set it up so
everybody wins very big, including attendees. AFAIK all the other lucky
"elite" do too. (I try not to be both stupid and a greedhead at the same
time.)

Like I said, it's not about paying a speakers fee. It's about valuing
people's work in some form. Of course the organizers put zillions of hours
into it, and I'm very grateful. That's how conferences are. But It would have
been great to use the collective generative power to let a whole bunch of
people--not necessarily the speakers, but certainly the staff and many
more--go home with enough money to do something good with it, and to create a
nest egg for great projects. "One low price" rules out those gifts.

NAPC is a different event from Pc Voices, yes, but so far it looks like every
regional convergence I've attended: camping in a field, bringing in the usual
crowd, having lots of panels and discussions, and charging one, really low
price "so everyone can afford it." I confess that some of my reaction here is
my disappointment that a different model wasn't chosen-- has there been no
succession in 30 years? But I really, truly hope that a lot comes of NAPC.

Topic shift: The fact that a few high rollers are perceived as getting most
of the work (where I live we distribute it) tells me that we're still a tiny
group and still on the fringe. Niches are few and simple. It tells me that
there are still few jobs in teaching and designing, so the pattern literate
will look for employment elsewhere or create a new niche. We need
permaculture-trained lawyers, repair people, dental hygienists, mechanics,
carpenters, security guards, investment managers, and a lot of other
professions and trades, much more than we need more teachers and landscape
designers. Let's have that conversation, and many others, at NAPC.

My intention is to have a great time at NAPC and help make a bunch of great
things come of it.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Aug 3, 2014, at 7:04 PM, loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> Toby- you bring up good points, but I think you may be missing an important
> one. This is not about scarcity, it is about reality. $150 is a lot of
> money to some people, especially when you consider travel to get to the
> event.
>
> I was one proponent of keeping the cost of the event low enough so that
> folks from "the rest of the Americas" could join (especially after the way
> overpriced Cuba IPC). This event is not just for well-to-do USAliens, it
> is the NORTH AMERICAN Permaculture Convergence. There are other countries
> in North America other than the USA and Canada, "the rest of them" (ie
> Mexico) will sadly not be equally represented because of- you guessed it-
> money.
>
> And what about the rest of the PC movement, the other 99%? Those who are
> just getting started, or those who are not as fortunate as some of us, who
> may have travels expenses that far exceed the cost of the event- so in
> effect it becomes a $1000+ affair? Many in the PC movement deliberately
> avoid making money (reduce the need to earn) because they are not into
> supporting a degenerative, fiat based currency system. Also, many are on
> the frontier, are pioneers in their area (geographically) or field, who are
> waiting for the rest of the world to catch up. For this reason they may
> not earn what they deserve, or will soon.
>
> It is easy for us to type on our $1200 computers how we should be
> compensated for our work in order to obtain a yield (ie pay off the
> computer). Is money the only yield here? What about inspiring the up and
> comers? What about sharing what works and what doesn't with your peers?
> What about tithing? I can think of dozens of other yields that will be
> harvested that far outweigh the speakers fee.
>
> I am honored to be a speaker at this event. I am honored to do it for
> free. I get paid very well with my work as a permaculture designer and
> teacher, and I am able to subsidize my trip to the NAPC with this income.
> I am glad to support this historic event in this way.
>
> Furthermore, not everyone can garner as high a speaker fee as you, Toby.
> Not that you don't deserve it, its just not equal. Also, many of us don't
> get called to speak at these events because we haven't written books or are
> not very good at promoting ourselves. Its all good, this is just reality.
> Though not yours, obviously.
>
> I think PC Voices was a great event for the PC movement- taking it to the
> masses, the mainstream, the capitalist patriarchal model- the ones who need
> to get this info. But PC Voices was HEAVILY subsidized by John Roulac as
> Wes noted, without his help it probably wouldn't have been such a success.
> (Perhaps we could have had some sort of sliding scale for the NAPC also.)
> I personally am glad the PC Voices was successful, and that the PC Elite
> was able to make some good cash speaking. But to me the NAPC is not about
> the elite, is is about the other 99%.
>
> I hate to phrase it this way, but I do see PC becoming the model of
> capitalism that Scott warned us of- where a small group of the regular
> speakers are getting 99% of the speaking gigs and design jobs, while the
> other 1% subsidize their PC career with outside work. To me the NAPC is
> about sharing this wealth- of giving those who normally don't get the calls
> up on stage. (I know several speakers who have A LOT less field experience
> than me, who are full on teaching because of a few good career moves. I am
> not bitter because I have enough, I am just making an observation. Is this
> what we want to create for PC?)
>
> I have a solution/suggestion. For those who feel that they should be paid
> to speak at the NAPC, why don't you put a donation jar at the podium, or
> pass the hat during your talk? I am sure nobody would object. I tell you
> why I wouldn't- because I would feel like a dick unless I really needed it.
>
>
> How much do you need in order to feel motivated to speak? This to me is
> the real scarcity situation going on here- feeling like you cannot afford
> to speak for free, for fear of denigrating your own work. I was delighted
> to see Darren Doherty, one of the world's leading PC Designers, take the
> stage at the last minute during the IPC Conference in Cuba- for free. This
> to me shows that he has the 3rd ethic firmly rooted in his heart.
>
> Furthermore, I suggest we take up donations for the organizers during the
> event, who apparently are doing a lot of this work for free- they deserve
> this support more than speakers IMO. This was one unintended consequence
> of keeping the event fees so low (agreed not the best design, but this is
> the first in a series hopefully so there are always better next times). I
> agree that we could have charged another $50 and most people wouldn't have
> felt the pang, but why not save that for those who can voluntarily donate
> to the event organizers, those who can afford it? Like you and I, Toby.
>
> I am good for $50. Heck, lets make it $100. How's that for abundance
> consciousness?
>
> Loren Luyendyk
> (805)-452-8249
> Accredited Permaculture Teacher, PRI-AUS
> ISA Certified Arborist WE-7805A
> www.sborganics.com
> www.surferswithoutborders.org
> www.globalpermaculture.com
>
>
>
>
>> From: lakinroe@silcom.com
>> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 14:32:34 -0700
>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] NAPC: Scarcity?
>>
>> hi
>> i agree with Toby i agree but what scale would be fair for each speaker
>> that presented , my understanding when NAPC was first organized/conceived
>> that they did not want taking heads , it would be a series of
>> panels/circles that you could or could not be part of if you attended,
>> that has changed i think,
>>
>> i love Permaculture Voices and supported Diego from the start with hand
>> outs are our events and also at many festivals. I felt with needed a
>> professional conference for PC. I knew he would be sweating it as PC
>> community waits till the last moment to register. John Roulac of Nutiva
>> save the day by subsidizing a low fee that drew the large numbers in the
>> end. The end result is that Diego was able to have a successful event and
>> now is willing to host this next year.
>> It could of failed and never happen again as many PC events get starved
>> because of lack of support. the International Permaculture Conference
>> /Convergence is always facing a lack of financial support for all the same
>> reasons Toby has mentioned.
>>
>> I agree everyone need to be part of sharing economy and yes share
>> resources to create a economy that supports the change
>>
>> more later thanks Toby
>> wes
>> ps at Santa Barbara Permaculture Network we have always paid PC teachers
>> and travel expenses since our first event in 1997 .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:09 PM, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 1, 2014, at 12:55 PM, Michael Pilarski via permaculture
>>> <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can you imagine how much it would cost
>>>> if we had to pay each one of them what they currently get paid for
>>>> giving a
>>>> workshop or keynote speech!? . . . We don�t want to set up a
>>>> hierarchy. Come because you are excited about participating ... not
>>>> because you
>>>> are getting paid.
>>>
>>> Since you mention it publicly, I gather that a number of presenters have
>>> asked if they can be compensated for their work. (Warning: rant ahead,
>>> and Skeeter, this isn't personal--since I've gotten, like, 8 copies of
>>> this notice, it's repeatedly hit one of my hot buttons.)
>>>
>>> What if a corporation or plantation boss had said, �Can you imagine how
>>> much our products would cost if we paid our workers fairly?� Permies
>>> don�t get a pass on that just because we�re doing good work; corporations
>>> think they are too. It�s also a guilt-tripping argument, which is kind of
>>> embarrassing.
>>>
>>> Here's the answer to the question: Given the expected 500 attendees,
>>> another $50 would generate $25,000. More than enough to pay everyone
>>> well, including the hard-working organizers. Since the fee structure of
>>> NAPC already has a set of $50 tiers, one more would have fit in fine.
>>>
>>> People aren't asking to be paid just to get money. It's hard work to put
>>> a talk together (takes me 40-80 hours for a 90-minute talk), and if our
>>> work yields no return, we've designed a bad system that burns us out.
>>> Remember "Get a yield?" Not to do so is unsustainable. We should be
>>> modeling abundance, not scarcity. "Here, come be a permaculturist, stay
>>> broke, live in scarcity, and get nothing for your hard work but good
>>> feelings!"
>>>
>>>
>>> The price of NAPC is ludicrously low. $150 for 3 days of presentations,
>>> workshops, awesome conversation, meals, and camping? That�s just nuts!
>>> For $50 more, NAPC could have compensated everyone well for their work
>>> and had broader appeal. And at a regular conference rate, we could have
>>> funded the projects we'll conceive there. I know a lot of people who
>>> aren�t attending because it�s just the usual folks, camping in a field,
>>> like every convergence.
>>>
>>> It feels like the guiding principle for NAPC is �let�s spend as little as
>>> possible so we can charge as little as possible.� That�s a brutally
>>> limiting design ethic. Imagine how much richer the event would be if the
>>> ethic was, �How do we make this as awesome as we can, pay everyone fairly
>>> for their work, and still find ways for everyone to afford it?�
>>>
>>> One of many ways is how Permaculture Voices did it: A block of very
>>> expensive, full-price tickets (which sold well because not every
>>> permaculturist is poor!), blocks at half and one-quarter price, and a
>>> large block of free tickets. They had 650 very diverse attendees, and a
>>> presenters budget of, I estimate, over $100,000 to pay 70 speakers very
>>> well. There are many ways to design it to be affordable for all, beyond
>>> �do it as cheap as we can.�
>>>
>>> When 500 people come together, they can generate a surplus that will
>>> provide enough for everyone. How did NAPC miss that resource? (I assume,
>>> since NAPC isn't paying others for working, that NAPC staff, too, are all
>>> doing this for free).
>>>
>>> It�s not that there is a �hierarchy,� as the letter puts it. There is
>>> true diversity in skills, experience, and income. To deny that reality,
>>> to not take advantage of it, is poor design.
>>>
>>> Please, let�s get over the idea that everyone in permaculture is poor,
>>> that there is no money out there, that this is a world of scarcity. What
>>> kind of a vision to hold is that? This is a huge limitation for
>>> permaculture that we have to break out of!
>>>
>>> Maybe we need a session at NAPC on how to break the scarcity mentality of
>>> permaculture.
>>>
>>> Toby
>>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
>>> maintenance:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> message archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>> Google message archive search:
>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>> Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
>> maintenance:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> message archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>> Google message archive search:
>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>> http://www.ipermie.net
>> Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>> nature-compatible human habitat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible
> human habitat





Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page