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  • From: Kevin Topek <ktopek@att.net>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] On the pain of desiring land
  • Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 07:58:46 -0600

Dear Christopher,

I apologize for jumping to conclusions and taking offense to your observations. The Cedar Creek, TX you refer to is just west of Bastrop. I assume it has Colorado River silt atop a clay and caliche base. I remember cotton being farmed there for many of the last few decades. You are correct that Pines grow near riparian areas and scrub Oaks in the uplands and creek channels. I have also been planting Palms in the Austin area caliche and it appears to work. Please drop a line the next time you visit the Lone Star State. I am truly humbled.

Happy Trails!
Kevin Topek

On Dec 1, 2009, at 9:51 PM, christopher nesbitt wrote:

Hi Kevin,

Whoa! Slow down, pardner.

No slight on Texas, at all. I have spent a lot of time in Texas, and a
lot of time in Austin, Bastrop, San Marcos and Cedar Creek, and loved
it. Have also spent time in east texas, south Texas and west Texas,
and even up in the panhandle.

You asked this as a question, "To which part of Texas are you
referring, Christopher?" so will answer it as such: The land in Orange
Walk that is not suitable for agriculture looks a lot like a friends
place in Cedar Creek, Texas, which is right outside of Bastrop. The
land in Cedar Creekk that I was referring to is similarly not suitable
for agriculture. That is the Texas I was referring to, and it is a
part of Texas I know very well. I don't know if you have been to
either of these locations, but I assure you they strongly resemble
each other in plant communities and poorness of soil.

The soil is leached, and the dominant tree species is oak on both
pieces of land. If there weren't cahune palms on the horizon, across
the savana, I would have thought I was in Cedar Creek, Texas, and not
Belize. The grass on both pieces of land is stunted. The soil on my
friends land in Texas is significantly better than the soil in Orange
Walk, but still poor, and I wouldn't want either of them for farming.

Sorry for any perceived insult to the great state of Texas. I assure
you none was implied.

Best wishes,

Christopher

On Dec 1, 2009, at 8:15 PM, Kevin Topek wrote:

Christopher Nesbitt also wrote this line.

"Nothing much grows there, some oak, some pines. It looks like Texas."

Do you imagine
Texas to be a vast wasteland. It most certainly is not! Currently I'm
awash in flood waters. Texans do not appreciate being denigrated.

Kevin Topek, native Texan and damn proud of it

On Dec 1, 2009, at 7:51 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:

I'm curious where you are hearing the difficulties being played down.
Specifically, if you would, as I'd like to know who or what to put
on my
"ignore those idiots" list for my students.

Bill makes many references to the importance, if you want to farm, of
finding land with good water, good soil, and good microclimate, but I
couldn't find anything about how easy it is. I was trying to find
statements in permaculture books, or Permaculture Activist articles
about it being less than a lot of work to rehabilitate damaged land.
All
I can find is descriptions of projects that involve a great deal of
work
("first we dug 8 km of swales and put in two 1/4 Ha ponds, then
planted
4000 trees while living in a tent for the first 3 years because we
were
too tired to build . . ."). Holmgren's Meliodora book, one of the few
detailed case studies out there, talks about 8 years of hard work and
then years more of modifications. Yes, Bill jokes about how after 5
years of work, the designer can become the recliner, but that seems
close to the truth from my own experience on 10 acres of degraded
land.
Of course, I finally figured out that most of that land wanted to be
forest and not farm, so I only gardened on 1/8 acre of it, which
wasn't
too hard. But Bill writes repeatedly about asking what the land wants
instead of imposing our will on it, and I eventually listened to him.

So who are these ignoramuses you keep running into?


and, Christopher Nesbitt wrote:

it is just land that is not suitable for agriculture.

Boy, if there's one lesson I could get across, that would be it.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


Rain Tenaqiya wrote:
I grew up with an intense hunger for my own plot of land, and was
desperate by the time I had the resources to buy some. I really
identify with the lust for land of the US "pioneers" and landless
peasants. I feel that permaculture, in its current form, does a
disservice to those seeking land by playing down the difficulties
of marginal land. It is true that a lot of land that is currently
considered marginal can be coaxed into producing yields for
satisfying vital needs, but only with more work, money, time,
energy, and other inputs than prime farming land.

On the other hand, it is less likely that permaculturists would
create dustbowls, because our practices are diametrically opposed
to such outcomes. We don't like tilling, bare soil, and
overirrigation or unsustainable water use, and we like mulching,
perennials, appropriate earthworks, etc.

Rain



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_____________________________
Christopher Nesbitt

Maya Mountain Research Farm
San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
BELIZE,
Central America

www.mmrfbz.org



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