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  • From: Stephanie Gerson <sgerson@stanfordalumni.org>
  • To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: [permaculture] Re: Black Walnut Guild
  • Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:37:36 -0800

For those of you interested in discussing guilds, I suggest you check out
the Permaculture Information Web (PIW) - an emerging database of
information about ecological relationships for purposes of guild design.
Please join the PIW listserv at:

http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/piw

We are in the process of deciding how to organize information about
plants and ecological relationships in an application-oriented way, and
your comments would be very relevant!

Thank you,
*Stephanie




------ Original Message ------
Received: 05:24 PM PST, 02/15/2005
From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 25, Issue 17

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: stove-fuel emmissions (Toby Hemenway)
2. Permaculture Institute of the Northeast (Joshua Dolan)
3. Re: Black Walnut Guild (woodsjay@cox.net)
4. Black Walnut Guild (robscott@freeshell.org)
5. Black Walnut Guild (Roxann Phillips)
6. Re: Black Walnut Guild (Keith Johnson)
7. Re: Persimmon Guild (Robyn Williamson)
8. Re: Persimmon Guild (Keith Johnson)
9. RE: Persimmon Guild (Cricket Rakita)
10. Re: Persimmon Guild (Keith Johnson)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:28:20 -0800
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] stove-fuel emmissions
To: permaculture list <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BE377134.3A2B%toby@patternliteracy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

On 2/15/05 3:02 AM, "david cuthbertson" <scienceinthegreen@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> Hi,
> My father is a retired combustion engineer with
> potential access to emissions analysis equipment

David: Aprovecho Research Center in Cottage Grove, OR,
(www.aprovecho.net)
has developed several low-emission, high efficiency stove designs that
they
install in much of the less-developed world. They work with the UN and
other
NGOs. Wood, (and only very occasionally gasoline or diesel) is pretty
much
the only fuel that is affordable for these people. Check with Aprovecho,
as
they've done a huge amount of this work already, both culturally and
technically, and know combustion science pretty well.

Toby
www.patternliteracy.com




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:45:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Joshua Dolan <rainbowwarrior14874@yahoo.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture Institute of the Northeast
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20050215174530.35980.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Does anyone out there know anything about where this
ida thread is headed? I heard through the grapevine
that there was some discussion about this at a recent
gathering in Massachusets. I would like to bring this
discussion out into the public forum, and also suggest
that Ithaca, NY is a great central location where we
might meet, perhaps sometime this summer (JULY?) and
discuss this idea, share our knowlege, and forge
tighter bonds between us northeastern permies.

Joshua Dolan
Finger Lakes Permaculture Network
115 the Commons
Ithaca, NY 14850

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:15:40 -0500
From: <woodsjay@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Black Walnut Guild
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<20050215201539.GZKG17120.lakermmtao11.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I can verify that tomatilloes grow well. Golden currants
(Ribes aureus) (Yellow blooms and black fruit) also do
well. Egyptian walking onions and Mulberries are others
that are doing well. Apricots, Peaches and Saskatoons are
not being interfered with.
>
> From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
> Date: 2005/02/14 Mon PM 10:25:43 EST
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Persimmon Guild
>
> Black walnuts, as I'm sure you've learned, are fairly
challenging
> species to guild with. Many small fruits seem to thrive
amongst them.
> I've even found that one solanaceae (tomatillo) can
actually grow under
> them. I'd like to hear more about your successes and
failures.
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:02:25 +0000 (UTC)
From: "robscott@freeshell.org" <robscott@freeshell.org>
Subject: [permaculture] Black Walnut Guild
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.61.0502152051070.17878@sdf.lonestar.org>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed


In response to the disparaging comments about Black Walnut, I'm posting
my
research on Black Walnut ecology and companion planting. A list of
productive species for Black Walnut understory appears at the bottom.

Rob Scott
Urbana Permaculture Project
Urbana, IL

Black Walnuts (Juglans nigra) and Hackberry (Celtis occidentalis) occur
together naturally, both are reported to be allelopathic, for separate
but
overlapping sets of plants. In warmer climates, the closely related
Sugarberry (Celtis laevigata) would be a more fruitful associate.

Why is Black Walnut toxic?

Black Walnuts produce a toxin called "juglone" in all parts of the tree.
It is an antirespiratory compound with a phenolic ring. It probably
evolved to deter insect pests, not plants or humans. Fishermen have used
ground up walnut hulls to attract fish to the surface of the water; the
juglone slows fish respiration and the fish come to the surface to
breathe. Juglone in leaf litter degrades in about 2 days, so raked up
leaf
mulch is not toxic. Walnut tree roots constantly release juglone, and
this
is why nearby plants often die.

What companion plants help Black Walnut grow?

Control experiments in Illinois found that Autumn Olive (Elaeagnus sp.)
work better as a symbiont for promoting Black Walnut growth than Black
Locust (Robinia pseudoacacia). Both fix nitrogen, but the Autumn Olive
doesn't compete with the Black Walnut as much and seems to reduce deer
browse. The net effect of Black Locust was to set back Black Walnut by
shading. Degraded sites will yield different results as Black Locust
better restores depleted soils.

What naturally grows under Black Walnut?

Redbud (Cercis canadensis), Pawpaw (Asimina triloba), and Spicebush
(Calycanthus occidentalis) grow as understory shrubs under Black Walnut
naturally in Central Illinois. Ground level wildflowers are no less
abundant under Black Walnuts than in other natural forest communities.

Does Black Walnut create a lot of shade?

Black Walnuts let through a lot of sunlight. Shade is "dappled" even
after
leaves have fully emerged. Bud break in Black Walnut occurs in late
spring, allowing sun penetration to the forest floor for a few months
before leafing out. A rust fungus commonly causes anthracnose in Black
Walnut leading to early leaf-drop and dormancy in the fall, adding
another
month of full sun penetration. Understory shrubs have been shown to
reduce
anthracnose infection by breaking the ground-to-leaf cycle.

What productive plants can grow under Black Walnut?

(in no particular order)
American Black Currant - Ribes americanum
European Currant - Ribes nigra, Ribes rubrum, Ribes alba
Missouri Gooseberry - Ribes missouriensis
American Elderberry - Sambucus canadensis
Black Raspberry - Rubus ideaus
Siberian Pea Shrub - Caragana arboescens
Mulberries - Morus nigra, Morus alba
Alpine Strawberries - Fragaria vesca
Goldenseal - Hydrastis canadensis
Wild Ginger - Asarum canadense
Pawpaw - Asimina triloba
Redbud - Cercis canadensis - legume
Bamboo - Phyllostachys spp.
"Rose of Sharon" Hibiscus - Hibiscus Syriacus
Lamb's Quarters - Chenopodium alba
Catnip - Nepata cataria
Daylily - Hemerocallis sp
Sunchokes - Helianthus tuberosa

This is a good way to control the spread of sunchokes, and the tubers are
of fine size and quality even when shade grown. Dandelions, Violets and
Creeping Charlie have also grown naturally in Illinois Black Walnut
Guilds. Toby Hemenway mentions Woldberry (Lycium spp) in Gaia's Garden
for
growing near Walnut, but it doesn't grow well in Illinois.


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:15:27 -0600
From: "Roxann Phillips" <roxann@ancientearthwisdom.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Black Walnut Guild
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <001501c513b4$3c691d90$0300a8c0@rd973na>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Lisa, if you have quite a bit of shade and rich earth underneath,
ginseng does well with black walnut.

Roxann, soon to be in NW AR




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:27:50 -0500
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Black Walnut Guild
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <42128576.1040108@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

I haven't heard any disparaging words about black walnuts except for the
word challenging (for some species). I have grown all the species Rob
suggests and others besides and concur with his observations. Clovers
(white especially) and field peas (a great winter salad crop) did well
under them as did carrots, parsley, celery, and fennel (which suggests
that other umbels ought to be tried). The alliums work just fine and
because walnuts are late to leaf out, the sunshine that is available
until leaf formation provides great opportunity to grow lots of salad
type greens, lettuces, brassicas, spinach, etc. While I'm on the subject
of greens I want to take a moment to praise mache or corn salad. I
planted it a couple years ago and now it is my favorite self sowing
winter salad "weed". It has tolerated temps in the low single digits and
thrived. In a hoophouse it does even better and forms beautiful fat 8 in
diameter rosettes.
Keith Johnson

robscott@freeshell.org wrote:

>
> In response to the disparaging comments about Black Walnut, I'm
> posting my research on Black Walnut ecology and companion planting. A
> list of productive species for Black Walnut understory appears at the
> bottom.
>
> Rob Scott


--
Keith Johnson
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 1209
Black Mountain, NC 28711
(828)669-6336

also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
http://www.earthaven.org
http://www.bioregionalcongress.org





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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:08:51 +1100
From: Robyn Williamson <rz.williamson@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Persimmon Guild
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <F02B6CD2-7FAE-11D9-8B4E-0030657170AA@optusnet.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

The "recipe" I use for plant guilds, and I have communicated this to
JB, is the following:

Firstly stack your plants for vertical edge according to height and
width, i.e. use tree(s) together with shrub(s), vine(s), ground
cover(s), grass(es)/cereal(s) and bulbs or tubers underground. This
will enable a large amount of food in a small space.

Secondly, get to know (not easy because they are in Latin or Greek and
keep changing) or search through the plant families to choose a species
that does well in your area. e.g. all legumes (family Leguminosae/now
called Fabaceae) fix atmospheric nitrogen in the form of nodules on
their roots which becomes available in the soil for use by other plants
and therefore play an important part in any guild. Garlic, onions,
chives etc. all belong to the family Alliaceae (I think they have been
recently re-classified from the Liliaceae) and help to deter pests.
The Umbelliferae family (has a new name I can't remember) has flower
heads that are shaped like little umbrellas, e.g. dill, parsley,
carrots, they attract "carnivorous" beneficials who can easily stand on
the umbels with their long legs and "harvest" smaller insects for
breakfast. Nettle and comfrey are good companions for anything. A
book about companion planting is a good idea, but be aware that myths
and legends abound on this topic. According to Bill Mollison, trees
will eventually overcome grasses and a deciduous tree will provide all
the mulch you will ever need in situ, i.e. you won't have to cart it.

Keith is right however, your own observations are critical in the
construction of guilds, have a look around other gardens in your area
and see what is doing well. Talk to other gardeners in your local area
to help you get started.

Robyn

On Tuesday, February 15, 2005, at 11:50 am, Keith Johnson wrote:

> This guild business is consistently overcomplicated in many folks
> minds who seem to think it has hard and fast rules when it is really
> only a young science suggesting a rough outline to create a
> cooperative polyculture family of elements that get along with each
> other by including plants that provide nutrients, attract beneficials,
> create mulch, control diseases, suppress grasses, etc. We could, and
> will most likely, create hundreds of "recipes" for guilds that work
> with persimmons (or almonds or sassafras) and they would all be
> right, or not, for the region in which we are working.

CONTACT DETAILS:

Robyn Williamson
PDC, Urban Horticulturist
Hon Sec, Fagan Park Community Eco Garden Committee
Local Seed Network Coordinator
NORTH WESTERN SYDNEY COMMUNITY SEED SAVERS
mobile: 0409 151 435
ph/fx: (612) 9629 3560
email: rz.williamson@optusnet.com.au
http://www.seedsavers.net/lsn/32.html
http://www.communityfoods.com.au
http://www.au.gardenweb.com/directory/fpceg
http://www.sydney.foe.org.au/water



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:25:34 -0500
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Persimmon Guild
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <421292FE.4040108@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Its great learning about all the things that grow well under black
walnuts and I'm alway interested in learning more. I'm curious to hear
listed the items that failed to grow under them. I can begin the list
with tomatoes and potatoes and apples (even apples have been known to
grow if you put other plants between them and the walnuts, like tree
legumes and mulberry). I guess it comes down to distance.

Keith Johnson
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 1209
Black Mountain, NC 28711
(828)669-6336

also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
http://www.earthaven.org
http://www.bioregionalcongress.org


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------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:35:43 -0500
From: "Cricket Rakita" <cricket@savingourseed.org>
Subject: RE: [permaculture] Persimmon Guild
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <E1D1DAT-0000tJ-00@pop-a065d19.pas.sa.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Persimmons are the sole source for food for Luna Moths, a truly beautiful
insect.

Cricket Rakita
The Save Our Seed Project Coordinator
Carolina Farm Stewardship Association
49 Circle D Dr.
Colbert, GA 30628
home/work: (706) 788-0017
fax: (706) 788-0071
cell: (706) 614-1451
web: http://www.savingourseed.org
email: cricket@savingourseed.org

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Keith
Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 7:26 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Persimmon Guild

Its great learning about all the things that grow well under black
walnuts and I'm alway interested in learning more. I'm curious to hear
listed the items that failed to grow under them. I can begin the list
with tomatoes and potatoes and apples (even apples have been known to
grow if you put other plants between them and the walnuts, like tree
legumes and mulberry). I guess it comes down to distance.

Keith Johnson
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 1209
Black Mountain, NC 28711
(828)669-6336

also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
http://www.earthaven.org
http://www.bioregionalcongress.org






------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:24:15 -0500
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Persimmon Guild
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4212A0BF.8060008@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Luna moths. Oh, boy. That's one of the best reasons for growing
persimmons that I've heard. I have seen a total of four in my 52 years.
Once as a child in N Mich (where persimmons don't grow...they MUST eat
something else) and thrice here in NC where wild persimmons are common
(one of them in a cat's mouth...grrrr...and one on an auto grill) Thank
you.
Keith

Cricket Rakita wrote:

>Persimmons are the sole source for food for Luna Moths, a truly
beautiful
>insect.
>
>Cricket Rakita
>The Save Our Seed Project Coordinator
>Carolina Farm Stewardship Association
>49 Circle D Dr.
>Colbert, GA 30628
>home/work: (706) 788-0017
>fax: (706) 788-0071
>cell: (706) 614-1451
>web: http://www.savingourseed.org
>email: cricket@savingourseed.org
>
>
>
>
Keith Johnson
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 1209
Black Mountain, NC 28711
(828)669-6336

also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
http://www.earthaven.org
http://www.bioregionalcongress.org





--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005



------------------------------

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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 25, Issue 17
********************************************




+++++++++++++++
Stephanie Gerson
sgerson@stanfordalumni.org
(c) 415.871.5683


____________________________________________________________________






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