Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

percy-l - RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."

percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion on Walker Percy

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: "Parlin, Steven" <PARLINS AT culver.org>
  • To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
  • Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:46:30 -0500

Jim, if your "good ole anti-Semitic Christian Crusade" is a reference to the
USA's escalating war-in-Iraq preparations, your comment is not only
inappropriate -polemical?- but, well, a revelation of just the sort of
frightful ignorance that makes such murderous action possible in the first
place. Why? You quite simply fail to see that its not Christians preparing
for war, but consumer-driven secularists who may or may not be slinking
around behind a Christian veneer. Subsequently, your sort of rhetoric blurs
otherwise clear distinctions and fails to accurately identify the true
forces at work. It ain't the Christians. And, your rhetoric only serves to
fuel malicious animosity toward that which may well be the only bastian of
hope and sanity --Christ. Percy certainly thought so.

Anyone who ever has perpetrated such crimes against humanity are by that
very action NOT Christian. And, if you were simply making a generalization
about the ostensibly "christianized" West (ie. the US), I reiterate my point
about ignorance. Don't make such generalizations, for they are dangerous
misunderstandings which not only free the true culprits from their
culpability, but they also implicate the innocent, and in this case even the
advocate. No authentic christian has ever knowingly sanctioned murder, else
they weren't really Christian and thus cannot rightly be identified as such.
People don't hate what they know to be Chrstianity, but they do hate
misrepresenations of it --and your rhetoric is a grave misrepresentation.

Moreover, you might also avoid generalizations that declare the Hebrews or
the Arabs as "victims". Consult the account of Hanah Arendt (a jewish
reporter) of the trial of Adolf Eichmann --Eichmann in Jerusalem; the
Banality of Evil. There are no manichean forces at work in such crimes.
Instead, evil cuts right through the heart of every man (Solzenhitzen) and
it's our "sentimentality", our inclination toward self-fulfilling fantasy,
not our faith that permits that evil to thrive. The truth is Eichmann was a
dissapointment. He was not the monster everyone wanted him to be. Instead,
he was a mouse of a man who had been lulled into a moral sleep by sentiment.
Indeed, the effectiveness and the efficiency of the holocaust cannot be
credited to men like Eichmann. No. That burden rests squarely on the
shoulders of those jews who were complicitously (and in some cases quite
agreeably) responsible for orchestrating the planning and organizing and
book keeping.

You make a concession in the end and assume some responsibility for your own
participation in the problem, but that doesn't excuse your previous remarks.
Avoid the sweeping generalizations. They're dangerous.

I apologize to the list for any misdirection, but a rejoinder was in order.
SP



-----Original Message-----
From: James Piat [mailto:piat1 AT bellsouth.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 5:16 PM
To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."



>
> The rare times I'm in the mall, two words go through my mind: kitsch and
> despair (of course, kitsch and sentimentality go hand-in-hand). Gil Bailie
> refers to shopping malls as museums of nihilism.
> -DB

Well I'll take the kitsch of a shopping mall over the sentimental nostalgia
of another good ole anti-Semitic Christian Crusade any day. First the Arabs
in the middle ages, then the Hebrews in WWII and now it's back to the Arabs
again. That's the trouble I have with Percy and O'Connor's example of the
holocaust as an argument for Christianity or moral absolutism -- it's not
only ironic and in poor taste to say the least -- it's a shell game. The
problem is not moral relativism, shopping malls, Arabs, Jews or even
Christian anti-Semitism -- it's us: or in my case, me, always blaming the
other in the hope that this somehow absolves, protects or elevates myself.

Best wishes,
Jim Piat

--

An archive of all list discussion is available at
http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail

Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>From dabeck AT iupui.edu Thu Mar 6 20:53:19 2003
Return-Path: <dabeck AT iupui.edu>
Delivered-To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from plounts.uits.indiana.edu (plounts.uits.indiana.edu
[129.79.1.73])
by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDDA20054
for <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:53:18 -0500 (EST)
Received: from pearl.iupui.edu (pearl.iupui.edu [134.68.220.115])
h271sgww023192; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:54:42 -0500 (EST)
Received: from localhost (dabeck@localhost)h271si09019187;
Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:54:44 -0500 (EST)
X-Authentication-Warning: pearl.iupui.edu: dabeck owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 20:54:44 -0500 (EST)
From: David Alan Beck <dabeck AT iupui.edu>
To: Jim AT AutumnLeavesBandB.com
Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
In-Reply-To: <20030307011707.53309.qmail AT web10803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1030306203817.18412A-100000 AT pearl.iupui.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
cc: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
<percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
X-BeenThere: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
<percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
<percy-l.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l>,
<mailto:percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l>
List-Post: <mailto:percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l>,
<mailto:percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 01:53:19 -0000

Jim,
Actually, my class has been discussing the humor in Lancelot. I was
droning on about Kierkegaard and Marcel, etc., when one student commented
how funny the book is. And I'm glad she said that, because despite the
murders, betrayals, adultry, etc. it is a funny, in a dark, sardonic way.
(Of course, they just finished Joyce's The Dead and Conrad's Heart of
Darkness; at this point, in their eyes, a blood-letting would give rise to
chuckles and chortles.)

I hope I don't open a can of worms here (or the wrath of the list), but
if your reading group wants a lighter but interesting read, check out
Franzen's The Corrections. I thought it was a great summer read (hey, and
give the guy points for turning down Queen Oprah).
-David
On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Jim Wesson wrote:

> david,
> thank you and ,yes, you made sense. i have noticed
> ,as a matter of fact,that it in our ramblings that we
> often make the most sense. or at least i do .
> life is getting a bit heavy and one remedy i came up
> with was to change my reading group from Faulkner to
> p g wodehouse. a wonderful decision.
> peace to all,
> jim
> i guess i love wp as a story -teller most and as
> having interesting characters. like f. o'connor. both
> can be read on a light level also,and that's what i
> have to do. they are the most to say the least!
>
>
>
>
> --- David Alan Beck <dabeck AT iupui.edu> wrote:
> > Jim,
> > I think you are missing the point. If you look at
> > malls, pop culture in
> > general, it's business (i.e. aesthetic
> > attractions--in the Kierkegaardian
> > sense) as usual. And they are all a barometer for
> > where WE are. Bailie's
> > comment I think stands. What is particularly
> > dangerous is not what is
> > obviously crazy--i.e. genocide, etc.--but what lulls
> > us to sleep by its
> > "comfortableness." Soft music, sanitized
> > environment--to me, that is
> > closer to Percy's use of despair than the more
> > obvious, sensational event
> > like 9/11. Obviously, "the mall" is (by me and
> > Bailie) symbolic with what
> > is wrong with our culture: soft, soothing,
> > seductive, and meaningless.
> > Find fulfillment through "things." No god, no
> > introspection, no search is
> > necessary. It's all here, self-contained.
> > Karey's reference to Marcel's dichotomy of being
> > and having is right on
> > target. You can "be" anywhere--shopping mall
> > included--but if we are
> > seduced (and I often am)into thinking that "having"
> > is being or even a way
> > to becoming, then "the mall" has won. (Perhaps, if
> > the mall is part of our
> > search, then that's ok, as long as we see that the
> > true beauty and mystery
> > lies in the other--the clerk, the passer-by, etc. In
> > other words, I'm not
> > making the sacred/profane distiction; the mystery is
> > everywhere, making
> > the search possible no matter where we are.)
> > I'm rambling. Does any of this make sense?
> > -David
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Jim Wesson wrote:
> >
> > > lord, many things worse than malls.
> > > really,cheer up,they arn't that bad,are they?
> > >
> > > jim
> > > --- David Alan Beck <dabeck AT iupui.edu> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The rare times I'm in the mall, two words go
> > through
> > > > my mind: kitsch and
> > > > despair (of course, kitsch and sentimentality go
> > > > hand-in-hand). Gil Bailie
> > > > refers to shopping malls as museums of nihilism.
> > > > -DB
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 marcus AT loyno.edu wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Does anyone share with me the feeling I get in
> > any
> > > > shopping mall that 90%
> > > > > of what is offered in most shops and boutiques
> > is
> > > > congealed
> > > > > "sentimentality" (aka "cute")?
> > > > >
> > > > > If so, is this tied into the exhortations by
> > our
> > > > leaders to try to buy our
> > > > > way out of post 9-11 fear and to ignore their
> > > > (our?) preparations for mass
> > > > > murder?
> > > > >
> > > > > Fearful trembling in New Orleans one day after
> > Ash
> > > > Wednesday.
> > > > >
> > > > > Marcus Smith
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Percy mentions this in Lost in the Cosmos,
> > too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Something like..."Humans are sentimental and
> > > > violent; or rather,
> > > > > sentimental
> > > > > >therefore violoent.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I suspect he meant that our tendency toward
> > > > violence is not due to a
> > > > > focused
> > > > > >ideological rage or fury but something much
> > less
> > > > interesting --banality.
> > > > > >Sentimentality is a kind of dreamlike
> > insanity
> > > > that masquerades not just
> > > > > as
> > > > > >reality but as a kind of improvement on
> > reality,
> > > > a sort of banal utopic
> > > > > >uber-reality. Additionally, it may be the
> > case
> > > > that when a man's (or
> > > > > >woman's) sentimental vision is challenged or
> > even
> > > > destroyed, either
> > > > > >internally or externally, the violence of his
> > > > response is magnified in
> > > > > >direct disproportion to the distance the
> > vision
> > > > was away from reality.
> > > > > >Rather like having one's dreams shattered.
> > Maybe
> > > > its the dissapointment
> > > > > that
> > > > > >drives the rage. (I've seen this in my own
> > > > relationships. Once, after
> > > > > >hearing a friend sentimentalizing her
> > eventual
> > > > wedding day, I remarked on
> > > > > >the silliness of her fantasies, and that she
> > was
> > > > setting up an unlikely
> > > > > >scenario. Her response was vituperative and
> > > > cutting).
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Sound right?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >SP
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > > >From: Jim Wesson
> > [mailto:gypsyjimmy1 AT yahoo.com]
> > > > > >Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:11 PM
> > > > > >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical
> > > > Discussion
> > > > > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas
> > chamber..."
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But there was much tenderness in the forced
> > > > labor
> > > > > >camps . just as 9-11 brought out much
> > tenderness.
> > > > > >there is tenderness all over.
> > > > > > jim w.( can not back this up
> > philosophically
> > > > etc.
> > > > > > just like to read Percy and O'connor.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--- "Karey L. Perkins" <karey AT charter.net>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >> I don't know -- except that the quote came
> > from
> > > > her
> > > > > >> originally, as Allen and
> > > > > >> Robert said.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for
> > > > MaryAnn"
> > > > > >> reads...
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> "In the absence of this faith now, we
> > govern by
> > > > > >> tenderness. It is
> > > > > >> tenderness which, long since cut off from
> > the
> > > > person
> > > > > >> of Christ, is wrapped
> > > > > >> in theory. When tenderness is detached
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > >> source of tenderness, its
> > > > > >> logical outcome is terror [terrorism?]. It
> > > > ends in
> > > > > >> forced labor camps and
> > > > > >> in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227
> > > > Mystery and
> > > > > >> Manners).
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are saying
> > the
> > > > same
> > > > > >> thing.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> KP
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
>
>


David Beck





Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page