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Subject: Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion on Walker Percy

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  • From: Jim Wesson <gypsyjimmy1 AT yahoo.com>
  • To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
  • Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:11:25 -0800 (PST)


But there was much tenderness in the forced labor
camps . just as 9-11 brought out much tenderness.
there is tenderness all over.
jim w.( can not back this up philosophically etc.
just like to read Percy and O'connor.)





--- "Karey L. Perkins" <karey AT charter.net> wrote:
> I don't know -- except that the quote came from her
> originally, as Allen and
> Robert said.
>
> The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for MaryAnn"
> reads...
>
> "In the absence of this faith now, we govern by
> tenderness. It is
> tenderness which, long since cut off from the person
> of Christ, is wrapped
> in theory. When tenderness is detached from the
> source of tenderness, its
> logical outcome is terror [terrorism?]. It ends in
> forced labor camps and
> in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227 Mystery and
> Manners).
>
> Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are saying the same
> thing.
>
> KP
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Wesson
> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
>
>
>
> so please, how does f. o'connor come into all this?
> jim w
>
>
> --- "Karey L. Perkins" <karey AT charter.net> wrote:
> > Marcus,
> >
> > Percy is speaking in this interview with Zoltan
> > Abadi-Nagy about the hidden
> > dogmas of the secular point of view: Dogma 1 --
> > rejection of human
> > uniqueness and thus of the uniqueness of man's
> > symbolizing capacity. Dogma
> > 2 -- the noble savage (no original sin). That is,
> > secular humanism preaches
> > the absence of any "unique and fatal flaw [in
> > man]... that cannot be laid to
> > the influence of Western civilization."
> >
> > He concludes that critiques are necessary, not
> just
> > of fundamentalist
> > beliefs, but of secular humanism and scientific
> > inquiry (for the latter to
> > be "free"). "The warning: if it is not, if it is
> > subject to this or that
> > ideology, then do not be surprised if the history
> of
> > the Weimar doctors is
> > repeated. Weimar leads to Auschwitz. The
> nihilism
> > of some scientists in
> > the name of ideology or sentimentality and the
> > consequent devaluation of the
> > individual human life lead straight to the gas
> > chamber" (p. 396,
> > Signposts).
> >
> > In an earlier essay he spoke of the
> > "theorist-consumer" which I think
> > relates to this as well...especially the
> "theorist"
> > part -- which is not
> > concerned about the particular individual. I
> think
> > it also relates to
> > "ideology" which he uses above. And also to
> > "utopian" visions, which Hitler
> > had, which is concerned about the creation of
> > perfect society at the expense
> > of the individual.
> >
> > So I agree with you that "sentimentality" is a
> > reductive way of viewing the
> > situation. It seems more like this: If you are
> > sentimentally attached to
> > your ideology or theory or utopian vision at the
> > expense of true empathy and
> > compassion for the particular individual before
> > you....well, "to the gas
> > chamber."
> >
> > Which is why God came to us as a particular
> > individual.
> >
> > Relating to current events -- I've had a hard time
> > swallowing some of the
> > patriotism since 9/11 -- not that I'm not a
> patriot
> > or not for my country,
> > but really, it smacks of Percy's "sentimentality"
> > and seems dangerous -- in
> > danger of subsituting for true religious feeling.
> > It can become idoloatry
> > (another aspect of ideology/theory/utopian vision
> > commitments at the expense
> > of the individual). Loyalty to and commitment to
> > and sentiment for country
> > before God (i.e.: more importantly than God) --
> that
> > IS idolatry.
> > Marginalizing of the "other" (the Muslim or the
> > middle-easterner, now; the
> > Jew then) because they are not "American" or
> > "Christian" is idolatry and
> > ideology, and it arises from sentimentility for
> YOUR
> > "side" or theory or
> > vision or ideology. In addition, it's easy to
> do
> > if these people are
> > "theories" but once they are real people, it's
> > impossible (or more
> > difficult) to do.
> >
> > When God is first, we are all one before Him.
> >
> > Karey
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: marcus AT loyno.edu
> > To: karey AT charter.net ; percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:20 AM
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
> >
> >
> > Is the list discussing the remark that
> > sentimentality leads to the gas
> > chambers? (I'm coming in late.)
> >
> > The Percy list has visited this phrase before, and
> > maybe these discussions
> > are still available.
> >
> > I recall making a small demurrer. It wasn't just
> > sentimentality that led
> > the way to the gas chambers, though that seemed to
> > be where the quote took
> > the discussions. There was (and is) also
> > anti-semitism which doesn't
> > require sentimentality to thrive. The causes of
> the
> > holocaust, as everyone
> > here realizes, is an enormously complex subject.
> > The focus only on
> > sentimentality is extremely reductive.
> >
> >
> > Check the archives.
> >
> > Marcus Smith
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >MessageWhen, what context or work, did O'Connor
> use
> > it?
> > >
> > >KP
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: Robert_Pauley AT oxy.com
> > >To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM
> > >Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
> > >
> > >
> > >It was Percy quoting O'Connor.
> > >
> > >R. Pauley
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Karey L. Perkins
> [mailto:karey AT charter.net]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM
> > > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
> > >
> > >
> > > I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had
> originally
> > said this, or Percy
> > >quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I
>
=== message truncated ===> --
>
> An archive of all list discussion is available at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail
>
> Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>


__________________________________________________
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>From PARLINS AT culver.org Thu Mar 6 13:46:07 2003
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Percy mentions this in Lost in the Cosmos, too.

Something like..."Humans are sentimental and violent; or rather, sentimental
therefore violoent.

I suspect he meant that our tendency toward violence is not due to a focused
ideological rage or fury but something much less interesting --banality.
Sentimentality is a kind of dreamlike insanity that masquerades not just as
reality but as a kind of improvement on reality, a sort of banal utopic
uber-reality. Additionally, it may be the case that when a man's (or
woman's) sentimental vision is challenged or even destroyed, either
internally or externally, the violence of his response is magnified in
direct disproportion to the distance the vision was away from reality.
Rather like having one's dreams shattered. Maybe its the dissapointment that
drives the rage. (I've seen this in my own relationships. Once, after
hearing a friend sentimentalizing her eventual wedding day, I remarked on
the silliness of her fantasies, and that she was setting up an unlikely
scenario. Her response was vituperative and cutting).

Sound right?

SP




-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Wesson [mailto:gypsyjimmy1 AT yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:11 PM
To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."



But there was much tenderness in the forced labor
camps . just as 9-11 brought out much tenderness.
there is tenderness all over.
jim w.( can not back this up philosophically etc.
just like to read Percy and O'connor.)





--- "Karey L. Perkins" <karey AT charter.net> wrote:
> I don't know -- except that the quote came from her
> originally, as Allen and
> Robert said.
>
> The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for MaryAnn"
> reads...
>
> "In the absence of this faith now, we govern by
> tenderness. It is
> tenderness which, long since cut off from the person
> of Christ, is wrapped
> in theory. When tenderness is detached from the
> source of tenderness, its
> logical outcome is terror [terrorism?]. It ends in
> forced labor camps and
> in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227 Mystery and
> Manners).
>
> Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are saying the same
> thing.
>
> KP
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Wesson
> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
>
>
>
> so please, how does f. o'connor come into all this?
> jim w
>
>
> --- "Karey L. Perkins" <karey AT charter.net> wrote:
> > Marcus,
> >
> > Percy is speaking in this interview with Zoltan
> > Abadi-Nagy about the hidden
> > dogmas of the secular point of view: Dogma 1 --
> > rejection of human
> > uniqueness and thus of the uniqueness of man's
> > symbolizing capacity. Dogma
> > 2 -- the noble savage (no original sin). That is,
> > secular humanism preaches
> > the absence of any "unique and fatal flaw [in
> > man]... that cannot be laid to
> > the influence of Western civilization."
> >
> > He concludes that critiques are necessary, not
> just
> > of fundamentalist
> > beliefs, but of secular humanism and scientific
> > inquiry (for the latter to
> > be "free"). "The warning: if it is not, if it is
> > subject to this or that
> > ideology, then do not be surprised if the history
> of
> > the Weimar doctors is
> > repeated. Weimar leads to Auschwitz. The
> nihilism
> > of some scientists in
> > the name of ideology or sentimentality and the
> > consequent devaluation of the
> > individual human life lead straight to the gas
> > chamber" (p. 396,
> > Signposts).
> >
> > In an earlier essay he spoke of the
> > "theorist-consumer" which I think
> > relates to this as well...especially the
> "theorist"
> > part -- which is not
> > concerned about the particular individual. I
> think
> > it also relates to
> > "ideology" which he uses above. And also to
> > "utopian" visions, which Hitler
> > had, which is concerned about the creation of
> > perfect society at the expense
> > of the individual.
> >
> > So I agree with you that "sentimentality" is a
> > reductive way of viewing the
> > situation. It seems more like this: If you are
> > sentimentally attached to
> > your ideology or theory or utopian vision at the
> > expense of true empathy and
> > compassion for the particular individual before
> > you....well, "to the gas
> > chamber."
> >
> > Which is why God came to us as a particular
> > individual.
> >
> > Relating to current events -- I've had a hard time
> > swallowing some of the
> > patriotism since 9/11 -- not that I'm not a
> patriot
> > or not for my country,
> > but really, it smacks of Percy's "sentimentality"
> > and seems dangerous -- in
> > danger of subsituting for true religious feeling.
> > It can become idoloatry
> > (another aspect of ideology/theory/utopian vision
> > commitments at the expense
> > of the individual). Loyalty to and commitment to
> > and sentiment for country
> > before God (i.e.: more importantly than God) --
> that
> > IS idolatry.
> > Marginalizing of the "other" (the Muslim or the
> > middle-easterner, now; the
> > Jew then) because they are not "American" or
> > "Christian" is idolatry and
> > ideology, and it arises from sentimentility for
> YOUR
> > "side" or theory or
> > vision or ideology. In addition, it's easy to
> do
> > if these people are
> > "theories" but once they are real people, it's
> > impossible (or more
> > difficult) to do.
> >
> > When God is first, we are all one before Him.
> >
> > Karey
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: marcus AT loyno.edu
> > To: karey AT charter.net ; percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:20 AM
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
> >
> >
> > Is the list discussing the remark that
> > sentimentality leads to the gas
> > chambers? (I'm coming in late.)
> >
> > The Percy list has visited this phrase before, and
> > maybe these discussions
> > are still available.
> >
> > I recall making a small demurrer. It wasn't just
> > sentimentality that led
> > the way to the gas chambers, though that seemed to
> > be where the quote took
> > the discussions. There was (and is) also
> > anti-semitism which doesn't
> > require sentimentality to thrive. The causes of
> the
> > holocaust, as everyone
> > here realizes, is an enormously complex subject.
> > The focus only on
> > sentimentality is extremely reductive.
> >
> >
> > Check the archives.
> >
> > Marcus Smith
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >MessageWhen, what context or work, did O'Connor
> use
> > it?
> > >
> > >KP
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: Robert_Pauley AT oxy.com
> > >To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM
> > >Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
> > >
> > >
> > >It was Percy quoting O'Connor.
> > >
> > >R. Pauley
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Karey L. Perkins
> [mailto:karey AT charter.net]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM
> > > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
> > >
> > >
> > > I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had
> originally
> > said this, or Percy
> > >quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I
>
=== message truncated ===> --
>
> An archive of all list discussion is available at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail
>
> Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>


__________________________________________________
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--

An archive of all list discussion is available at
http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail

Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>From marcus AT loyno.edu Thu Mar 6 16:05:31 2003
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Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
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Does anyone share with me the feeling I get in any shopping mall that 90%
of what is offered in most shops and boutiques is congealed
"sentimentality" (aka "cute")?

If so, is this tied into the exhortations by our leaders to try to buy our
way out of post 9-11 fear and to ignore their (our?) preparations for mass
murder?

Fearful trembling in New Orleans one day after Ash Wednesday.

Marcus Smith



>
>Percy mentions this in Lost in the Cosmos, too.
>
>Something like..."Humans are sentimental and violent; or rather,
sentimental
>therefore violoent.
>
>I suspect he meant that our tendency toward violence is not due to a
focused
>ideological rage or fury but something much less interesting --banality.
>Sentimentality is a kind of dreamlike insanity that masquerades not just
as
>reality but as a kind of improvement on reality, a sort of banal utopic
>uber-reality. Additionally, it may be the case that when a man's (or
>woman's) sentimental vision is challenged or even destroyed, either
>internally or externally, the violence of his response is magnified in
>direct disproportion to the distance the vision was away from reality.
>Rather like having one's dreams shattered. Maybe its the dissapointment
that
>drives the rage. (I've seen this in my own relationships. Once, after
>hearing a friend sentimentalizing her eventual wedding day, I remarked on
>the silliness of her fantasies, and that she was setting up an unlikely
>scenario. Her response was vituperative and cutting).
>
>Sound right?
>
>SP
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Wesson [mailto:gypsyjimmy1 AT yahoo.com]
>Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:11 PM
>To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
>Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
>
>
>
> But there was much tenderness in the forced labor
>camps . just as 9-11 brought out much tenderness.
>there is tenderness all over.
> jim w.( can not back this up philosophically etc.
> just like to read Percy and O'connor.)
>
>
>
>
>
>--- "Karey L. Perkins" <karey AT charter.net> wrote:
>> I don't know -- except that the quote came from her
>> originally, as Allen and
>> Robert said.
>>
>> The quote from O'Connor's "A Memoir for MaryAnn"
>> reads...
>>
>> "In the absence of this faith now, we govern by
>> tenderness. It is
>> tenderness which, long since cut off from the person
>> of Christ, is wrapped
>> in theory. When tenderness is detached from the
>> source of tenderness, its
>> logical outcome is terror [terrorism?]. It ends in
>> forced labor camps and
>> in the fumes of the gas chamber" (p. 227 Mystery and
>> Manners).
>>
>> Sounds like O'Connor and Percy are saying the same
>> thing.
>>
>> KP
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jim Wesson
>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:29 AM
>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
>>
>>
>>
>> so please, how does f. o'connor come into all this?
>> jim w
>>
>>
>> --- "Karey L. Perkins" <karey AT charter.net> wrote:
>> > Marcus,
>> >
>> > Percy is speaking in this interview with Zoltan
>> > Abadi-Nagy about the hidden
>> > dogmas of the secular point of view: Dogma 1 --
>> > rejection of human
>> > uniqueness and thus of the uniqueness of man's
>> > symbolizing capacity. Dogma
>> > 2 -- the noble savage (no original sin). That is,
>> > secular humanism preaches
>> > the absence of any "unique and fatal flaw [in
>> > man]... that cannot be laid to
>> > the influence of Western civilization."
>> >
>> > He concludes that critiques are necessary, not
>> just
>> > of fundamentalist
>> > beliefs, but of secular humanism and scientific
>> > inquiry (for the latter to
>> > be "free"). "The warning: if it is not, if it is
>> > subject to this or that
>> > ideology, then do not be surprised if the history
>> of
>> > the Weimar doctors is
>> > repeated. Weimar leads to Auschwitz. The
>> nihilism
>> > of some scientists in
>> > the name of ideology or sentimentality and the
>> > consequent devaluation of the
>> > individual human life lead straight to the gas
>> > chamber" (p. 396,
>> > Signposts).
>> >
>> > In an earlier essay he spoke of the
>> > "theorist-consumer" which I think
>> > relates to this as well...especially the
>> "theorist"
>> > part -- which is not
>> > concerned about the particular individual. I
>> think
>> > it also relates to
>> > "ideology" which he uses above. And also to
>> > "utopian" visions, which Hitler
>> > had, which is concerned about the creation of
>> > perfect society at the expense
>> > of the individual.
>> >
>> > So I agree with you that "sentimentality" is a
>> > reductive way of viewing the
>> > situation. It seems more like this: If you are
>> > sentimentally attached to
>> > your ideology or theory or utopian vision at the
>> > expense of true empathy and
>> > compassion for the particular individual before
>> > you....well, "to the gas
>> > chamber."
>> >
>> > Which is why God came to us as a particular
>> > individual.
>> >
>> > Relating to current events -- I've had a hard time
>> > swallowing some of the
>> > patriotism since 9/11 -- not that I'm not a
>> patriot
>> > or not for my country,
>> > but really, it smacks of Percy's "sentimentality"
>> > and seems dangerous -- in
>> > danger of subsituting for true religious feeling.
>> > It can become idoloatry
>> > (another aspect of ideology/theory/utopian vision
>> > commitments at the expense
>> > of the individual). Loyalty to and commitment to
>> > and sentiment for country
>> > before God (i.e.: more importantly than God) --
>> that
>> > IS idolatry.
>> > Marginalizing of the "other" (the Muslim or the
>> > middle-easterner, now; the
>> > Jew then) because they are not "American" or
>> > "Christian" is idolatry and
>> > ideology, and it arises from sentimentility for
>> YOUR
>> > "side" or theory or
>> > vision or ideology. In addition, it's easy to
>> do
>> > if these people are
>> > "theories" but once they are real people, it's
>> > impossible (or more
>> > difficult) to do.
>> >
>> > When God is first, we are all one before Him.
>> >
>> > Karey
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: marcus AT loyno.edu
>> > To: karey AT charter.net ; percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:20 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Is the list discussing the remark that
>> > sentimentality leads to the gas
>> > chambers? (I'm coming in late.)
>> >
>> > The Percy list has visited this phrase before, and
>> > maybe these discussions
>> > are still available.
>> >
>> > I recall making a small demurrer. It wasn't just
>> > sentimentality that led
>> > the way to the gas chambers, though that seemed to
>> > be where the quote took
>> > the discussions. There was (and is) also
>> > anti-semitism which doesn't
>> > require sentimentality to thrive. The causes of
>> the
>> > holocaust, as everyone
>> > here realizes, is an enormously complex subject.
>> > The focus only on
>> > sentimentality is extremely reductive.
>> >
>> >
>> > Check the archives.
>> >
>> > Marcus Smith
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >MessageWhen, what context or work, did O'Connor
>> use
>> > it?
>> > >
>> > >KP
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >----- Original Message -----
>> > >From: Robert_Pauley AT oxy.com
>> > >To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> > >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:26 PM
>> > >Subject: RE: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >It was Percy quoting O'Connor.
>> > >
>> > >R. Pauley
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Karey L. Perkins
>> [mailto:karey AT charter.net]
>> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:35 AM
>> > > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> > > Subject: [percy-l] "...to the gas chamber..."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I wasn't sure if it was Percy who had
>> originally
>> > said this, or Percy
>> > >quoting Flannery O'Connor or someone else. I
>>
>=== message truncated ===> --
>>
>> An archive of all list discussion is available at
>> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail
>>
>> Visit the Walker Percy Project at
>> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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>--
>
>An archive of all list discussion is available at
>http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail
>
>Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>--
>
>An archive of all list discussion is available at
http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail
>
>Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>
>From piat1 AT bellsouth.net Thu Mar 6 16:14:19 2003
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> He concludes that critiques are necessary, not just of fundamentalist
> beliefs, but of secular humanism and scientific inquiry (for the latter to
> be "free"). "The warning: if it is not, if it is subject to this or that
> ideology, then do not be surprised if the history of the Weimar doctors is
> repeated. Weimar leads to Auschwitz. The nihilism of some scientists in
> the name of ideology or sentimentality and the consequent devaluation of
the
> individual human life lead straight to the gas chamber" (p. 396,
> Signposts).

Dear Karey, Folks--

I think Percy and O'Connor both wish to also make the point that ethics can
not rest on man's sentiments or feelings alone but must also be rooted in
some moral absolute such as the ten commandments, Catholicism or the like.
But how does one choose between one's religious beliefs and one religious
theories.

> In an earlier essay he spoke of the "theorist-consumer" which I think
> relates to this as well...especially the "theorist" part -- which is not
> concerned about the particular individual. I think it also relates to
> "ideology" which he uses above. And also to "utopian" visions, which
Hitler
> had, which is concerned about the creation of perfect society at the
expense
> of the individual.

Yes this point too.

Best wishes,
Jim Piat





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