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corpus-paul - Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant

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Subject: Corpus-Paul

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  • From: "Rabbi Saul" <tim AT rabbisaul.com>
  • To: "Corpus-Paul" <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Second Temple Judaism and Covenant
  • Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:43:03 -0600

> Sanders calls the union "participatory" and Tabor a new cosmic family,
> immortal Sons of God with Christ the agent (expaining Rom 8), concluding
> with glorification the completion of transformation, but he doesn't state
an
> ontological status. Something was going on in Paul's mind: was it just
> metaphor, as "sharing" with Christ in a continuing process ("one degree to
> another")? Probably, but what at the end of parousia?--that appears for
> Paul to be ontological, IMO. Wouldn't you say that for Paul there is
> clearly a distinction between the two "bodies"? I don't think he was
> interested in ontology.

As I indicated, there is a distinction due to transformation, but there is
not a division between two separate identities. Paul clearly affirms the
church's confession regarding the resurrection of Christ's body (cf e.g. 1
Cor 15.4). This is not a *different* body (in the sense that the
unresurrected body of Christ could just as well be still lying in the tomb),
but a *transformed* body (it is no longer subject to decay, death etc).
There is continuity as well as discontinuity between the two aeons.

> YOU: The redemption of creation itself clearly refers to what *we* would
> call the world - otherwise creation would be groaning for its own
> *obliteration*, rather than its redemption.
> ME: I don't think so. The "world" for Paul as ancients conceived, was
the
> "cosmos" consisting of the heavens and the earth, the heavens being
> something of a spiritual nature. Yes for the Jews, the world was
"groaning"
> to say the very least!

I have no idea what you are trying to say. But I think my point is clear
enough. The creation that groans is the creation that will be redeemed.
Focus upon the text, please.

> I didn't say Jesus' body floats on the clouds, permanently or temporarily:
> this is not my belief. Referring to "movement" I think is your eisegesis:
> like where did you get that?

Look up the texts. The association of Jesus with clouds are in texts
referring to ascent and descent. That's movement.

tim

Tim Gallant
Pastor, Conrad Christian Reformed Church
Conrad, MT

Biblical Studies Center
http://www.timgallant.org/center.htm

Pauline studies:
http://www.rabbisaul.com

(406) 278-5846 / (406) 278-7809
Fax: (406) 278-7809
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