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corpus-paul - RE: Paul's "dying for us" language

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  • From: "Bill Ross" <wross AT farmerstel.com>
  • To: "Corpus-paul" <corpus-paul AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
  • Subject: RE: Paul's "dying for us" language
  • Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:05:47 -0600


{Jeff}
And my response to your point is that this is a thesis that would need to be
argued.

{Bill}
Something made more complicated by a lack of a common appreciation of the
plain use of words.

{Jeff}
Can you so easily assume that this definition, though not stated until
Romans is
assumed to be standing behind "justification" texts that appear in Epistles
that are
earlier than Romans?

{Bill}
1 Corinthians is considered one of Paul's oldest NT writings and preaches
the same Gospel of Christ dying *for our sins*:

15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached
unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto
you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how
that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

But with a date of 54 for 1 Corinthians and 56 for Romans we are still
talking quite contemporary. And of course this is all corroborated in Acts
and Peter and the rest of Scripture.

{Jeff}
In any case, if you chose to pursue this, you might wish to take note that
you ground
your idea on at least four assumptions that many others here would find
questionable,
namely,

(1) that the translations of Romans, Ephesians, and Colossians that you work
from are fairly accurate (Rom 3:25, for instance, does NOT speak of
"propitiation");

{Bill}
hILASTHRION translated as "propitiation" will do for what we are discussing,
no? How would you translate it??

{Jeff}
(2) that Rom 3:24-25 is actually Paul's definition of justification;

{Bill}
Paul took the trouble of defining his term and redefining it. The words are
plain. On what authority do you preempt his own definition of what he meant
with something divorced from "peace toward God" in favor of something man
centered?

"He who through faith is righteous shall live" (Romans 1:17b)

{Jeff}
(3) that "forgiveness of sins" (let alone "justification") according to Paul
is an individual
experience or how the sinner finds a gracious God, rather than something
that is
corporate and involves over coming the hostility between Jews and Gentiles;

{Bill}
Unlike English, Koine is precise about number and repeatedly specifically
addresses the individual:

Romans 4:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the
ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God
imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins
are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

{Jeff}
(4) that "blood" is equivalent to death, let alone a death suffered in
substitution for others or a price paid to an angry God who demands a death
as satisfaction for some grave offense to his honour; and

{Bill}
Reference to the death of Christ is everywhere explicit in Romans, just as
the rest of the Bible:

Romans 5:
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the
ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a
good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet
sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from
wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of
his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

{Jeff}
(5) that Colossians and Ephesians are Pauline.

{Bill}
Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus
our brother,

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints
which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:








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