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  • From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture Ethics
  • Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 13:10:15 -0700

Bob, 

I hear you on oral history - I've long felt the same way. We will be
interviewing those permaculture pioneers and veterans who are willing at the
convergence - we will have film equipment, they will all be there - it's a
great opportunity. Of course, that is nothing like really digging in and
filming each person for several hours - or several days -  which is really
what needs to be done! But it is a start. 

Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
northamericanpermaculture.org



On Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:53 PM, Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net> wrote:



Someone should print this email from Scott and deposit it in. . . the
Permaculture Archives. Where are the Permaculture Archives?  Well, I suppose
that is yet another project that needs to be designed and done.  With our
elders getting more elderly, we probably should think about how we preserve
the documents of our early history.  And that includes doing oral histories
with the permaculture elders.  An oral history is a simply a conversation,
that is recorded and transcribed for posterity, about the experience of a
person's life.

Eventually we would probably link up with a major library to establish a
Permaculture Special Collections which would receive these artifacts and
documents that tell our story.

One of the issues for "historiography" in the modern era is our dependence
upon electronic records.  While cleaning out a closet, I came across a box
of "floppy diskettes" -- both the larger 5" and the smaller ones that
replaced them. And they are hmmm probably only 20 years or so old.  All of
that info is functionally lost to me asI don't have a machine to read them
and they havne't really been stored well.

I'm thinking of printing the archives of this discussion group on archive
quality paper.

Bob Waldrop, Okie City

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf
Of Scott Pittman
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 10:39 AM
To: 'permaculture'
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture Ethics

To further clarify, Geoff L. was asked to leave the Tyalgum permaculture
site by Bill after other people there complained about Geoff's behavior.

Geoff left and that was the end of PRI at the PC Institute site in Tyalgum.

Scott

"To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf
Of Robyn Francis
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:07 AM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture Ethics

I haven't read the full article yet on
http://tcpermaculture.com/site/2013/05/15/the-third-ethic-its-time-to-identi
fy-the-mutation/
but a few paragraphs into it I found a significant error regarding
permaculture history.

Bill Mollison DID NOT create PRI, PRI was created in the late '90s by
Lawton, Tomas Mack & co to take over a lease of Tagari Farm in northern NSW
because Bill was moving back to Tasmania, together with his Permaculture
Institute.

Bill established The Permaculture Institute around 1979, and this institute
still exists today (currently managed by Lisa Mollison), it never was and
never should be confused with PRI which is a completely separate legal
entity controlled by Geoff Lawton. NB when PRI was originally set up they
used the Permaculture Institute's egg/snake logo extensively, very much
giving the impression that The Permaculture Institute had 'recycled' itself
as PRI. This has caused endless confusion in the minds of many permies, and
time the history was set straight.


just to make sure it's crystal clear, there are 2 very distinctly separate
entities:

The Permaculture Institute, establish by Bill Mollison circa 1979, which
still exists under the management of his wife Lisa Mollison, based in
Tasmania

The Permaculture Research Institute, created by Geoff Lawton et al in the
late 1990s , now apparently a Lawton pc franchise system with head office at
Zaytuna Farm in Nthn NSW.

Robyn



On 10/08/2014, at 2:59 AM, Steve Hart wrote:

> Yes Pete...great points of debate, but again we are widening the whole
> issue here, IMO unnecessarily. I prefer to support Scotts assertion as
well
> as aspects of what JK alludes to. I like Scott was a first generation
> student of 1980 and did not pay much attention to the ethical lecture
> of
BM
> but do clearly recall "Share the Surplus" as Scott puts it. I
> therefore reiterate that for that is the whole dynamic of how I
> interpret and it
fits
> perfectly with the entire argument. I also see there is no point in
> developing any other variation, but to bring such up in discussion of
> further education throughout the PDC and all the applications we then
> apply....Steve Hart
>
>
> On 9 August 2014 17:06, <farmer1@gasperfarm.com> wrote:
>
>> Its hard to understand the third ethic when everyone has their own
version
>> of it and it inevitably gets used as a hammer for whatever their own
>> political ideology is.
>>
>> The aspects of permanent agriculture seem to be fairly agreed upon
>> but if permaculture aspires to be relevant to the larger society and
>> to be about permanent culture it is going to have to involve all the
>> aspects of culture including those two lightning rods politics and
religion.
>>
>> Pete
>>
>>
>>>
>>> <
>>
http://www.permaculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Fellfoot_Drove_Sheep
>>> fold_-_geograph.org_.uk_-_1155943.jpg> Fellfoot Drove
>>> SheepfoldPermaculture Touchstone
>>>
>>> Permaculture ethics were presented in my first Permaculture Design
Course
>>> as
>>> the touchstone of designing towards sustainability - whether as a
>>> landscape designer, as an architect, urban planner, as a
>>> farmer/gardener, as a teacher or activist, as an urban dweller
>>> seeking to find balance and create an ecologically-sound life.
>>>
>>> I was amazed that I hadn't been presented with a statement of ethics
>>> in any other discipline I had studied; I had known about the
>>> Hippocratic oath taken by medical practitioners, but not for
>>> professions that deal with the health of the land, of our
>>> communities or our cities and ecosystems.  Since
that
>>> time I have realized how critical ethics are in my permaculture
>>> design work and my teaching of permaculture.  Ethics guide my work
>>> and my daily activities.
>>>
>>> The three ethics of permaculture are:
>>>
>>> 1.Care of the Earth, 2. Care of people, and 3. Set limits to
>>> consumption and reproduction, and redistribute surplus to the
>>> benefit of the Earth and people.
>>>
>>> At first reading, this seems a simple guide, but, like all things
>>> permaculture, a little reflection leads us into a morass of
>>> implications and decisions to be made.
>>>
>>>
>>> Care of the Earth
>>>
>>>
>>> How does one care for the Earth when we have such an elementary
>>> level of understanding of the Earth's processes?  Care of the Earth
>>> has an implication that we are knowledgeable enough to become the
>>> caretakers of the planetary processes.  We, humans, are just
>>> learning the basics of the foundational knowledge of life processes! 
>>> What mankind has exhibited in the last 10,000 years is an incredible
>>> ability to lay waste to the Earth
with
>>> little to no care for it!
>>>
>>> The first ethic sets a very high bar for those of us aspiring to
>>> teach about and work with nature-inspired design, striving to
>>> achieve resiliency
that
>>> we
>>> observe in truly natural systems.
>>>
>>> The second and third ethic are, really, a reiteration of the first
>>> one, but with more specificity.
>>>
>>>
>>> Care of People
>>>
>>>
>>> Care of People is also a very grand aspiration especially within our
>>> culture of individualism, and narcissistic tendencies.  The
>>> evolution of the Western society into a class system of the "haves"
>>> and the "have-nots" is a  sad testament to a lack of care for the
>>> "have-nots".  This is not just an economic divide but a social
>>> justice issue encompassing health care, housing, meaningful work,
>>> education, justice, equality between genders (not just male and
>>> female), racial equality, and the pursuit of happiness.
>>>
>>> I find caring for people particularly challenging since we have been
>>> so wounded by a culture that judges one's worth by the possessions
>>> one
owns,
>>> and by one's conformity with cultural norms of beauty, education,
>>> income and behavior.  Living in a culture that is primarily in
>>> corporate hands does not allow us to truly explore our humanity or
>>> to express it, particularly as it pertains to care of others.  To a
>>> sociopath this humanistic attitude is the ultimate failure in the
>>> scrabble to the top echelons of the social
order.
>>>
>>> Anyone who has seriously thought about the implications of
>>> permaculture soon realizes that herein lie all the answers to the
>>> dysfunction of our
>> society
>>> and yet we continually default to the destructive behavior we have
>>> been indoctrinated into by an educational system that's primary
>>> purpose is to engender an attitude of obsequious servitude to the
corporate bosses.
>>>
>>>
>>> Set Limits to Consumption and Population
>>>
>>>
>>> The third ethic is a troubling one to me, not because it is
>>> unnecessary but because it is so little understood.  The third ethic
>>> does not want to
fit
>>> into a comfortable sound bite, it is wordy and long and that has
inspired
>>> many  generations of permaculture teachers to morph it into
>>> something simpler, easier to digest.
>>>
>>> I often hear that the third ethic is: "a return of all excess to the
care
>>> of
>>> the earth and people".  Somewhere along the line "set limits to
>>> consumption and reproduction" was dropped from the lexicon.  I think
>>> this may have been because of the political climate surrounding
>>> birth control and the holy rite of consumption.
>>>
>>> To be fair, the third ethic is so unwieldy and it does not trip off
>>> the tongue as poetically as the first two ethics.
>>>
>>> It would be great to have one of the pioneers of permaculture shine
>>> some light on the history of this critical ethic.
>>>
>>> More recently the third ethic has further devolved into "fair share"
>> which
>>> is a far cry from the original intent of this ethic.  Fair is an
>> ambiguous
>>> word that changes with the user, what is fair for me may be totally
>> unfair
>>> for you.  What is the gold standard of "fair"?  I am certain that
>>> this misstatement of the third ethic derived from that constant
>>> quest for the "sound bite" that sounds good but, sadly, conveys very
>>> little
>> information.
>>>
>>> I am much more concerned with the meaning conveyed by the third
>>> ethic
>> than
>>> the meter or prosody of the words.  It is critically important that
>>> we state the permaculture ethics in non-compromised form so there is
>>> no doubt in their meaning or necessity.
>>>
>>> The ethics of permaculture are the core; around that core everything
else
>>> -
>>> permaculture methods, approaches, design concepts, practical
applications
>>> -
>>> converge.  If all our decisions are seen through the lens of the
>>> three permaculture ethics we will not stray far from our best
intentions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
>>> obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
integrated
>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org How to
>> permaculture your urban lifestyle http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared 
>> http://www.avantgeared.com https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kia ora
>
> [image: Picture]
> *Steve Hart*
> Ecology Architect
> skype: stevenlawrencehart

> _______________________________________________
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> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
nature-compatible human habitat

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Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
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On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Koreen Brennan via permaculture <
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

> Thank you Jason - that is sweet! I think this conversation is a needed one.
>
> I feel that there is quite a bit that we could do to improve the design of
> how we operate as a movement (and money is only a small part of that), but
> in spite of money, or camping, etc, this event is going to be as good as
> what we all make it together, and that has a lot to do with the intention
> and focus we have, going into it. We have an opportunity to move things
> forward to the next level of succession through use of intelligent design
> and I would love to see that happen. I know what the people who are coming
> to this event are capable of - I felt frustrated at having such talent all
> in one place in Cuba and how little that massive resource and energy was
> utilized.
>
> I'm excited to see the conversations happening now, and hope they continue
> long after the event. If the convergence acts as nothing more than a
> catalyst for broader conversation that addresses some of the tough issues,
> and this conversation leads to better design ideas, more collaboration, and
> a stronger network and movement, it will be well, well worth it.
>
>
A very large amount of that can be accomplished right here in this list and
if it needs reconfiguring or needs more co-owners, lets get that done. If
companion resources need to be created that link directly to discussion
here, that can be done too though there needs to be close linking to
activity and traffic going on here. A Google+ page would be an excellent
place to start. Facebook is out for me as I have permanently canceled my
membership; I urge people not to use Facebook for serious, important
Permaculture discussion; anything else would be better, even Linkdin.
Google+ would be a much better option than a blog except for those with
websites that use them. I could create a Google+ page entitled Permaculture
Forum At Ibiblio; those with G+ accounts could post and the public could
comment. Its all free and works flawlessly. If this is created as an
organization's page then it can have a management team consisting of page
owners and page managers with different access privileges for each group.

I found a great page that describes "managing a Google+ page as a team":
http://readwrite.com/2011/12/21/how_to_manage_a_google_page_as_a_team.
More: "This week, Google+ enabled up to 50 people
<http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_adds_stream_noise_controls_50_admins_per_pa.php>
at a time to manage Google+ brand pages. Since brand pages are how
organizations manage their presence on Google+, many page owners need to
give multiple team members the ability to edit and moderate. Yesterday's
update
<http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_adds_stream_noise_controls_50_admins_per_pa.php>
not only allows a large team to control the page, it allows transfer of
ownership. So if one person created your page but someone else needs to be
in charge of it, the creator can transfer that power. The Google+ interface
is a little busy, so here's a step-by-step guide for how to change managers
of a Google+ page. Managers have all the same powers
<http://support.google.com/plus/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer#80625&topic10599&ctx=topic>
as owners except for two key things: they can't delete the page, and they
can't transfer ownership. Otherwise, both owners and managers can add and
remove new managers, view the roster of managers (including their email
addresses), adjust the page's settings (like notifications), and, most
importantly, do page actions like post content and edit circles."

So, this provides us with the ability to delete or edit pages or content
within pages, i.e. posts and comments, as the need arises.

Also, in combination with Google Drive (Google Docs) and Google Sites
(website) allows us to create archives of discussion threads and documents
in various formats. Google Drive provides space for spreadsheets and
documents created in many other formats. Archives of photos, videos,
YouTube video channel, multimedia, sketches, blueprints, audio (stored in
Sites or Drive or embedded in a Video with a single static image or
slideshow) can be created and stored for free using Google resources.
Having a YouTube channel for the list would be an effective to post videos
made during the NAPC for public viewing. Google+ allows creation of media
galleries within each page, easily accessed by the public and easily
managed.
So as an extension to this mailing list we can have the following: Google+
page, Google Site, YouTube Channel, Google Drive (Google Docs).

Come to think of it this might be an excellent way to move beyond this
mailing list to a resource with additional features that are needed by this
community.
Bob mentioned the need for an archive of important posts sent to this list.
All posts sent to this forum are automatically included in the list's
message archives and can be easily and effectively searched using this
system:
Ibiblio PC list message archive search using Google's "site" command:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Put this in your browser's search window, not in the URL dialog box.
Ex.: site lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture napc
Here is the URL for the Google search results for that:
https://www.google.com/search?q=site+lists.ibiblio.org%2Fpipermail%2Fpermaculture+napc&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

I will look into getting this set up today and drag Michael and Bob and
anyone else interested along to help with ownership and share the workload
(probably minimal) :-) I hope others will become interested in this G+
extension of the ibiblio PC list. I think it will be fill a stated need and
be a worthwhile venture for all of us. Getting a GMail and Google+ account
is no more difficult than subscribing to this list and I will help anyone
needing it with account configuration related to privacy issues.

I think that the NAPC will go way beyond the actual event to forge the
frontiers of a new era for Permaculture, globally, on the W/E European
continent and throughout North America.
This list helps as a : -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
pioneers practicing and teaching permaculture
while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with integrated
elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
nature-compatible
human habitat --


So, how can we get the biggest possible yields from this event? Let's start
> designing....
>

I have offered one way to help do this above.

>
> Koreen Brennan
>
> www.growpermaculture.com
> northamericanpermaculture.org
>
>
>
> On Saturday, August 9, 2014 9:48 PM, Jason Gerhardt <
> jasongerhardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Koreen,
> In re-reading my posts I can see how it could sound like I'm being critical
> of NAPC, but I'm (and I suspect no one else is either) not intending to
> direct my comments toward NAPC. My apologies if it sounded that way. I look
> forward to a great event in a few weeks!
>
> Just wanted to clarify that,
> Jason
> _______________________________________________
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> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat
>



--
Lawrence F. London
lfljvenaura@gmail.com
http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Skype: lawrence.f.london




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