permaculture

[christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>]

Again, late to the conversation.

I have enjoyed reading your thoughts, Toby, as usual, as well as everyone 
elses.

I have some thoughts about woody agriculture, stacked polycultures, 
agroforestry. My experience is limited to the tropics, where soils tend to be 
poor, and easily damaged, and informed by my time working where I live. The 
land I am working was formerly citrus and cattle, severely degraded, 
compacted and a monoculture at the end of its short productive life cycle. 
This is similar to a lot of land in the lowland humid tropics, damaged land 
left behind by poor management practices, and is an excellent avenue for 
young people to get into owning land. I bought my land in a remote area, no 
road, no electricity in1988. I was 22. It was cheap.

I took my  PDC in 1991 with Michael Pilarski, Chuck Marsh, Rick Valley, Jose 
Caballero, and Mark Cohen. I got excited by the concept of what would now be 
called "biomimicry", this idea of creating habitat through tree planting, and 
decided to replicate the form and function of the primary rainforest. Much of 
what I have observed contradicts the idea that annuals are more productive 
than perennials, at least in terms of energy invested to energy returned. 
Perhaps an acre of grain will produce more than an acre of tree crops, but 
not in terms of calorie based accounting. Annual systems take a lot of energy 
to plant, maintain and harvest. Agroecologies built on trees are much more 
human scaled. The two tools I use every day are a machete and a 5 gallon 
bucket, and my own two feet.
 
As a farmer of over 25 years of work with annual crops and perennial crops I 
can state with some conviction that the energy returned on energy invested of 
a stacked polyculture that is well designed and well established, with staple 
crops like breadfruit (Artocarpus ailtilis), breadnut (Artocaprus camansi ),  
jackfruit (Artocarpus heterophylla), coconut, avocado, mango, the various 
spondias, herbaceous perennials like papaya and banana/plantain, plants such 
as chaya (Cnidoscolus aconitifolius), and moringa can provide greens, with 
things like banana, pineapple, papaya among a small percentage of potential 
components, and the eventual sub-canopy crops such as coffee, cacao, ginger, 
cardamom, tumeric and vanilla, some of which are extremely high value, is 
much better than the return on energy invested of any perennial system. It 
takes much less energy to maintain a well designed agroforestry system once 
established than a set of annual crops, be it sorghum, corn, rice or beans or 
any vegetable crops. Annuals, here, when compared to a stacked polyculture 
that is mature, are like spinning your wheels on a car. 

Vegetable gardens and corn, bean and rice crops, including the "three 
sisters" or corn, beans and pumpkin, the energy to establish and maintain 
those annual cropping systems is significant, more prone to pests, and 
subject to problems related to weather for growth and harvesting.

Lets think of our classic abandoned "emerald wasteland", what I had, the 
green desert left behind after the green revolution has spoiled all the 
habitat for soil biota and reduced the landscape to an inherently 
biologically and financially unstable monoculture, and that high energy input 
to high energy output system has run up into the limitations of the 
productive life span of the target crops, banana, pineapple, citrus, 
sugarcane or intensive papaya, for some examples and the increased damage to 
the soil. That land has some specific needs:
1. Soil covers to retain soil so it does not lose more soil
2. Money earner/calorie exporting crop
3. Soil microorganism habitat creation

The key to a successful establishment of an agroforestry system here is to 
take advantage of temporal microclimates. When you have sun, you can grow sun 
loving plants. We grow annuals when the perennialr are getting established, 
corn, rice, beans, vegetables, interplanted with pioneer species like 
pineapple planted on contour, to retain soil and provide a yield within two 
years, and bananas for cover and shade, and to provide a yield within a year, 
with massive amounts of biomass for mulching and long pseudo-stems for use to 
make mechanical barriers to soil loss, especially around target species. 
Additional crops like papaya, sugar cane, cocoyam, cassava and sweet potato 
will give a yield within one year. Pioneer species make the rest of what is 
coming possible. 

One species that is especially noteworthy is pigeon pea or Cajanus cajan. 
This is a semi-perennial bean plant that grows to a height of 8 feet, 
spreading a crown. it lives for up to three years and has a large and deep 
tap root. The canopy of this species, when planted densely, will shade out 
the ground, completely, and reduce the impact of torrential rains. It gives a 
lot of food, up above where the wild pigs, agoutis and other animals can 
reach it, and mines nutrients from the soil. At the end of its life, it  
dries out, and the whole "tree" becomes fuel wood, very important to farmers 
in rural areas who do not use propane. The roots, left behind, from the deep 
and large tap root to the many lateral and hair roots, all die. The nitrogen 
associated with the roots is released, and the resulting woody material 
becomes food for soil microorganisms from termites down to bacteria and 
fungi. The space taken up by the roots becomes habitat for those organisms 
and improves the ability for both water and oxygen to infiltrate the soil. 

Taking care of these plants for the intervening years between initial 
planting and production of your long term target species gives the farmer a 
good return in calories and marketables while the woody crops are getting 
established. That is key as few farmers have the surplus energy to maintain a 
future "food forest" without a yield in the interim. Some of those species 
are improving soil structure, like banana, or retaining soil, like pineapple, 
vetiver or lemon grass. 

This mimics the biological pattern of succession here with plant species like 
Cecropia, the Heliconias, Bay cedar (Guazuma ulimifolia), hog plum (Spondias 
mombin), balsa (Ochroma sp), Cuam wood (Schizelobium parahybum) which emerge 
after a catastrophe like a fire, hurricane or monoculture, only the 
transition we are making from damaged land to ecosystem replication is much, 
much faster, and our species selection is largely human centric.

By year five, the microclimates have changed, and the sections of my land 
that have been expanded into have some shade from fruit and timber trees. 
This allows us to take advantage of those microclimates.

In the initial years we have selected a mixture of trees for the canopy based 
on need, and the desired goods and services. Timber trees like samwood 
(Cordia alliadore), mahogany, cedar and santa maria (all Meliaceaes), and 
teak all have different wood qualities, canopy behaviours and time frame 
between planting and harvesting. Samwood, for example, is an excellent canopy 
specie for cacao and coffee, keeping its shade in the dry season, harvestable 
within 20 years, while the melliaceaes all kick their leaves off when you 
need a canopy the most, and take 40-70 years to harvest. Samwood also has the 
wonderful habit of shedding lateral branches as it grows skyward, dropping 
lots of fuel wood to the forest floor, a desirable attribute for us as we use 
fuel wood, exclusively, to cook. Teak, on the other hand, makes shade that is 
much too dense for those species, and can be taken out after 16 years or a 
bit longer. 

In the agroforestry system we have made, food trees, all of the Artocarpus 
species, mango, avocado, peach palm, coconut, the spondias, caimito, guava, 
soursop, annona, amongst a small number of the species we manage, take up a 
large percentage of the canopy, and provide much of the calories after years 
five to seven when the "pioneer species" have reached senescence or been 
shaded out. Some species, like mamey, may take fifteen years to give fruit. 
Planting early and late bearing cultivars of various species expands the 
seasons of those species, giving better food security and access to markets. 

Leguminous trees are a part of the agroforestry system too, and provide some 
products and services. Guanacaste (Enterolobium cyclocarpum) has a huge 
spreading crown, makes great wood... but takes over 50 years to get to the 
point where is should be harvested. It is also a tree legume, so fixes a lot 
of nitrogen, drops hundreds of lbs of small leaflets, which seem to be all 
surface and no core mass, so excellent for making soil, and attracts birds 
when in flower. The pods are loved by our pigs. Leucaena is used for fire 
wood, the leaves are edible by animals (with some limitations because of the 
alkaloid mimosine), and attracts parrots when in fruit. The erythrinas 
attract pollinators, carpet the floor with mulch and retain soil. Tamarind 
fixes nitrogen and gives a fruit very high in vitamin C. The bauhinias can be 
coppiced, repeatedly, and make excellent fuel wood. Inga edulis and the other 
ingas gives pods high in nutrients, excellent fuel wood and a spreading 
crown. Mayflower, (Tabebua sp.) can make excellent canopy, are leguminous and 
make great rot resistent wood.

The coconut trees provide us with marketable oil, and the pressed partially 
defatted meat is excellent animal fodder. We have a lot of them planted out, 
in what I call "induced patchiness", which replicates natural patterns of 
pathchiness, increasing rates of pollination and eases harvesting. They are 

Under that newly established canopy at year five is where it gets 
interesting. Cacao and coffee are often called "shade loving", a misnomer, in 
my opinion. They are really shade requiring. With inadequate shade, those 
trees will live short miserable lives. With enough inputs, they may be 
productive. Once the canopy gets to a certain point, coffee and cacao can be 
planted. The cacao will yield within another five years. the coffee only take 
two or three years, depending on soil conditions and species of coffea. The 
energy to maintain this area of land is decreased as less sunlight hits the 
ground and the grasses and other sun loving species die back. The harvest 
increases of longer term crops as the pioneer species become less important.

By year 10, this system is now producing lots of food, literally food 
dropping from the canopy to the forest floor. If not previously established, 
ginger, tumeric and cardamom can be propagated, complexing the agroforestry 
system by adding additional harvest/revenue streams into the matrix of plant 
assemblies of the farm without cannibalizing or otherwise detracting from 
what is there, already. Vanilla can be planted amongst those crops, adding a 
very high value crop into the system, as can black pepper. These crops 
diversify the production and take advantage of the shade and structure 
provided by previous work. The presence of medicinal crops, too many to 
mention here, is another important aspect of stacked polycultures. They fit 
easily into a diversified system. 

Soil profiles in many locations on the farm are changing, with accumulation 
and aeration of the soil from root activities and mechanical or botanical 
barriers to erosion. We swale here, but not so much for water infiltration 
than to create long settling ponds for the run off to deposit soil nutrients. 
The water washes down biomass and soil, which settles. The soil and leaves, 
sticks, seeds, flowers, manure all become rich zones oWe lay banana stems in 
V's open to the hill slope around the base of target species like cacao and 
coffee or young fruit or timber species, and fill in those V's with mulch, 
banana leaves, compost and biochar. The water washing down the hill s carry 
nutrients in the form of leaves, stems, soil particles, animal and bird 
manure, and the web of biomas slows the water so that the nutrients settle. 
The larger trees are also mining nutrients from the subsoil and dropping them 
to the forest floor in the form of leaves, branches, flowers and fruit, where 
they are broken down by mocroorganisms to create more soil.

I spend half an hour to an hour walking around collecting food for my pigs, 
which really compliment the production model we have made, and food for my 
students and family, and to export from the farm to town. I don't sell much 
food, not for any ethical reason, but because the time involved in getting to 
market and selling it is not worth the money I might make. We sell cacao and 
ginger, and vanilla, and pigs, all things that have a good value. We donate 
food weekly to a program that feeds 22 elderly people in nearby Punta Gorda 
town. At this point, except where I am expanding, I spend most of my working 
time, two to three hours a day, collecting food and fuel wood from the 
"forest", literally foraging in the forest I created. Right now I have about 
25 acres under active management. 

Because of the level of diversity we are very -protected from both market 
vagaries and plant specific pathogens. We have a lot of species. In addition 
to the high level of species diversity, we also have high diversity within 
species, making species specific pathogens less threatening. 

One thing that is important for me is the timber species I have planted are 
increasing in value every day. I have thousands of timber trees planted out, 
all of which are growing at a steady rate. Some of them are quite valuable, 
already. My children will get many thousands of board feet of cedar, 
mahogany, santa maria, teak and samwood. Where does that fit into the 
argument that annuals produce more than perannials?

As for closed nutrient cycles, I import few things directly for the farm 
except for the occasional bag of distressed, weevil infested corn I get from 
my campadre in the village, or rice bran from the rice mill, for my pigs, and 
their manure is cycled back to the land. We live up a river with no road, and 
can only come or go in a small motorless dug out canoe. We cannot haul in 
much inputs!

My pigs eat the food from the farm, mostly fallen food from trees, and return 
it to the farm in the form of composted pig manure. We bring in foods we do 
not grow, and of course defecate and urinate and that ends up as part of our 
soils, too.. I have animals passing through my land from the Columbia Forest 
Reserve to the Columbia river, my land comprising a biological corridor 
between intact habitat and water, since the karst landscape to the north of 
us has no surface water in our dry season. We get large cats, jaguars, 
ocelots, margays, puma and janguarundi passing through, as well as collared 
and white lipped peccaries (who ate my bean crop this year), and brocket deer 
and tapir, as well as many species of birds. Some of these bring in seed for 
the farm, most of the Chaemadora tepejilote and Chaemadore ernesti-augusti 
initially was brought in by birds, and the important food, much prized by the 
Kekchi Maya, "chi'kai" (Calathea lutea) was also originally introduced by 
birds, but we now encourage it and it is a wonderful forest floor food that 
produces several pounds of food a day for us in its season. Because of 
intensive management and rotational practices, the chi'kai is largely absent 
from areas close to expanding village populatoins. Birds also propagate some 
of the chili peppers we eat, passing the seeds to the soil while roosting. 
Some of the predators, take things from us, especially poultry, and, over the 
years, too many dogs for me to think about without some degree of melancholy, 
and the wild pigs raid our corn, beans, cocoyam and cassava. 

So, at this point we are producing significant amounts of food, fiber, 
timber, medicinals and marketable crops. Because we have so many species, 
over 500, the harvest cycle is spread out through the year, and with our 
timber species, some of them are spread out into the future in a time span of 
decades. Large parts of the farm can be managed by one person working alone 
with a LOT of free time left over. Those parts also produce a lot of food in 
relation to the amount of energy invested to maintain them. 

The ecosystem services this farm provides, habitat for animals, a biological 
corridor betwen the forest and the river, carbon sequestration, soil and soil 
moisture rentention, they have value, as well, but those values, important, 
yes, critical in the face of rapidly expandinf population densities, yes, are 
very diffocult to quantify when the dominant paradigm in agricultural 
economics is the limited kilograms per hectare x dollar value per kilogram 
versus the cost of labour and inputs and capitalization model that most 
people assess value with.  

Where we are, now, as a species, the old economic model is woefully 
inadequate. Comparing annual crops to perennial crops is, in my opinion, also 
inadequate. In terms of straight calorie expenditure to calories returned, 
and the possibility of high value crops like vanilla, cardamom, tumeric, 
cacao and other crops, the increasing value of timber species, annual crops 
cannot come close to the value of a stacked polyculture. In terms of 
ecosystem service replication in human centered habitat that meets food, 
fiber, medicinal, timber and marketable needs, there is no valid comparison 
to annual production.


_____________________________
Christopher Nesbitt

Maya Mountain Research Farm
San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
BELIZE, 
Central America

Country code 501-630-4386

www.mmrfbz.org
www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm


On Jan 30, 2014, at 10:18 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:

> 
> 
> On Jan 30, 2014, at 4:00 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
> 
>> I think we all agree on this Toby but would you not say that annual 
>> gardens 
>> just because they produce more need more inputs?
> 
> 
> I'd like to see data on the comparison (I know it's there, I just haven't 
> searched). Our theory is that food forests need fewer inputs in the long 
> run, but I haven't checked to see if this is really true. If you are 
> growing 100 lbs of potatoes that are mostly edible tuber with a small 
> amount of inedible greens, won't that take fewer nutrients than growing 
> several tons of walnut tree to yield 100 lbs of shelled nuts along with, 
> every season, a few hundred lbs of husks and leaves? I know that the tree's 
> wood only needs to grow up once to keep yielding for a century or two, but 
> the leaves and husks have to get built every year. 
> 
> One of the complaints about food forest theory, voiced by a garden editor, 
> Greg Williams, is that woody plants devote most of their energy to 
> maintenance functions, which don't yield food, while annuals devote nearly 
> all their energy to growth, thus annuals will consistently outyield 
> perennials. I'm not sure if I buy this, but I have a hard time refuting the 
> logic. It bothers me. I want to love food forests.
> 
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
> 
> 
>> I mostly reacted to the 
>> argument from Darrell that there was not enough input available for food 
>> forests. If that is true then there can not be enough for the more 
>> demanding 
>> annual garden either. Since that is not the case in most places then there 
>> must be enough for food forests too.
>> If there is not enough input material available for a food forest then is 
>> it 
>> not likely to be the case that the annual garden will be even more under- 
>> supplied with nutrients?
>> John
>> 
>>> It's a law of physics: if you are harvesting from a system, you must 
>>> provide inputs to replace what is lost in harvest. Food forests need 
>>> inputs just as annual gardens do. They do some deep-root nutrient 
>>> extraction, but not enough to supply all their nutrients. I deeply love 
>>> the idea and reality of food forests, but as substantial producers of 
>>> dietary needs, they are nowhere near annual gardens at this point.
>>> 
>>> Toby
>>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jan 30, 2014, at 10:37 AM, John D'hondt wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sorry Darrell but I side with April in this. If you export vegetables and
>>>> thus nutrients from your land you need inputs. These inputs could be used
>>>> for a food forest and once this was established that would recycle under
>>>> it's own power.
>>>> For thousands of years in China farmers did work with a closed system. 
>>>> They
>>>> would go to market in the morning with a cart of produce and they would
>>>> return in the evening with the nightsoil of their customers. Unthinkable
>>>> now. But if you export nutrients even from the most fertile soil you run
>>>> into serious problems after about 20 years.
>>>> John
>>>> 
>>>>> well April, them's fightin words for sure..... but seriously......
>>>>> there is not enough mulch in all the world for food forests as I have
>>>>> seen them. Now if you want to limit the term permaculture to some ideal
>>>>> dream world applications and be a purist to ecosystem energy equations,
>>>>> that is fine with me, but we will have very little common ground for
>>>>> disussion. If you want to discuss permaculture design a a profession
>>>>> that leads people to regenerative ecological solutions then we can
>>>>> disuss it.
>>>>> When I met Bill Mollison he advised me to develop a market garden
>>>>> with the application of permaculture . seemed like good advice at the
>>>>> time, and so here I am still developing the finer points of Permacuture
>>>>> Market Gardening.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Darrell
>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
>>>>> Publishing, 2011
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:06:30 +1100, A Sampson-Kelly
>>>>> <april@permaculturevisions.com> wrote:
>>>>> Market Gardens are wonderful, don't get me misquoted here,
>>>>>> but they are not the permaculture message.
>>>>>> Market gardens export nutrients and organic matter, they are
>>>>>> constantly needing inputs to compensate for the exports.
>>>>>> as we all know Permaculture design aims to be a closed nutrient cycle,
>>>>>> so when something like a gorgeous market garden is branded as
>>>>>> permaculture it muddies the message.
>>>>>> When you need to keep importing nutrients and minerals and organic
>>>>>> matter you are starting to talk about extra "work" and extra
>>>>>> management.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When I first came to this site in 1993 we spent 6 hours every second
>>>>>> weekend in summer just mowing the lawns,
>>>>>> we definitely invest a lot less work and time on this site now.
>>>>>> So, there is no trouble with permaculture on my site and the reduced
>>>>>> work load is clear here.
>>>>>> http://permaculturevisions.com/what-is-permaculture-2/905-2/the-difference-between-organic-gardening-and-permaculture/
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- *April S-Kelly*
>>>>>> Additional Email: aprilskellymtkembla@gmail.com
>>>>>> Write: Permaculture Visions Cordeaux Rd Mt Kembla Village 2526 
>>>>>> Australia
>>>>>> Facebook: Permaculture Visions Fan Page
>>>>>> Google+: MotherGoosePermaculture A-S-Kelly
>>>>>> We are a carbon-negative business. http://www.permaculturevisions.com
>>>>>> <http://www.permaculturevisions.com/>
>>>>>> *Please consider your environment before printing this email on
>>>>>> old-fashioned paper.*
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 26/01/2014 2:22 PM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
>>>>>>> Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>>>> permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>>>> permaculture-owner@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>>>> than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  1. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
>>>>>>>  2. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
>>>>>>>  3. New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep
>>>>>>>     Nature Connection, and Natural Health (Lawrence London)
>>>>>>>  4. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Michael Pilarski)
>>>>>>>  5. 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd (christopher nesbitt)
>>>>>>>  6. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
>>>>>>>  7. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Koreen Brennan)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
>>>>>>> From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
>>>>>>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
>>>>>>> <holger@tierramor.org>
>>>>>>> Message-ID: <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com>
>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
>>>>>>> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited
>>>>>>> my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture 
>>>>>>> Design,
>>>>>>> offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture "
>>>>>>> was?
>>>>>>> I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
>>>>>>> different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
>>>>>>> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
>>>>>>> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all
>>>>>>> aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
>>>>>>> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
>>>>>>> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
>>>>>>> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
>>>>>>> permaculture design .
>>>>>>> As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting from
>>>>>>> where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
>>>>>>> sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
>>>>>>> sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch,
>>>>>>> sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
>>>>>>> Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and
>>>>>>> what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
>>>>>>> succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the
>>>>>>> yields the client seeks.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read such 
>>>>>>> self
>>>>>>> critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
>>>>>>> associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
>>>>>>> forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
>>>>>>> experience .
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
>>>>>>> gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real advice.
>>>>>>> Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
>>>>>>> comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or
>>>>>>> anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no
>>>>>>> work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I
>>>>>>> met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my
>>>>>>> fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great
>>>>>>> Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
>>>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
>>>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
>>>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
>>>>>>> Publishing, 2011
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
>>>>>>> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
>>>>>>>> critical with some expressions of PC-
>>>>>>>> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of
>>>>>>>> the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in
>>>>>>>> organic food production...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
>>>>>>>> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.)
>>>>>>>> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
>>>>>>>> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
>>>>>>>> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one
>>>>>>>> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
>>>>>>>> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
>>>>>>>> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
>>>>>>>> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not
>>>>>>>> the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
>>>>>>>> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
>>>>>>>> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and
>>>>>>>> its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
>>>>>>>> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
>>>>>>>> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
>>>>>>>> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
>>>>>>>> power of PC concepts get grounded.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Holger
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
>>>>>>>>> The Trouble with Permaculture
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
>>>>>>>>> uninformed
>>>>>>>>> are up to
>>>>>>>> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
>>>>>>>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
>>>>>>>> www.tierramor.org
>>>>>>>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
>>>>>>>> Consultas y asesor?as
>>>>>>>> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>> list maintenance:
>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>>>>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
>>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
>>>>>>> From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
>>>>>>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
>>>>>>> <holger@tierramor.org>
>>>>>>> Message-ID: <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so@webmail.bioshelter.com>
>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
>>>>>>> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited
>>>>>>> my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture 
>>>>>>> Design,
>>>>>>> offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture "
>>>>>>> was?
>>>>>>> I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
>>>>>>> different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
>>>>>>> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
>>>>>>> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all
>>>>>>> aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
>>>>>>> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
>>>>>>> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
>>>>>>> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
>>>>>>> permaculture design .
>>>>>>> As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting from
>>>>>>> where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
>>>>>>> sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
>>>>>>> sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch,
>>>>>>> sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
>>>>>>> Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and
>>>>>>> what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
>>>>>>> succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the
>>>>>>> yields the client seeks.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read such 
>>>>>>> self
>>>>>>> critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
>>>>>>> associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
>>>>>>> forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
>>>>>>> experience .
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
>>>>>>> gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real advice.
>>>>>>> Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
>>>>>>> comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or
>>>>>>> anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no
>>>>>>> work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I
>>>>>>> met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my
>>>>>>> fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great
>>>>>>> Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
>>>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
>>>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
>>>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
>>>>>>> Publishing, 2011
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
>>>>>>> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
>>>>>>>> critical with some expressions of PC-
>>>>>>>> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of
>>>>>>>> the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in
>>>>>>>> organic food production...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
>>>>>>>> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.)
>>>>>>>> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
>>>>>>>> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
>>>>>>>> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one
>>>>>>>> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
>>>>>>>> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
>>>>>>>> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
>>>>>>>> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not
>>>>>>>> the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
>>>>>>>> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
>>>>>>>> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and
>>>>>>>> its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
>>>>>>>> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
>>>>>>>> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
>>>>>>>> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
>>>>>>>> power of PC concepts get grounded.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Holger
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
>>>>>>>>> The Trouble with Permaculture
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
>>>>>>>>> uninformed
>>>>>>>>> are up to
>>>>>>>> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
>>>>>>>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
>>>>>>>> www.tierramor.org
>>>>>>>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
>>>>>>>> Consultas y asesor?as
>>>>>>>> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
>>>>>>>> list maintenance:
>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>>>>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
>>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:45:20 -0500
>>>>>>> From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: [permaculture] New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture
>>>>>>> Design, Deep Nature Connection, and Natural Health
>>>>>>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>> <CA+j2Q+B3K_mu0ksRJ7o3X+BKKcmjp1z8U08Wtvq-J0oFbAGuJg@mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/pdc-2014/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep Nature
>>>>>>> Connection,
>>>>>>> and Natural Health
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> by Ludwig Appeltans on October 6, 2013
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> in Awareness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/awareness/>, 
>>>>>>> Climate
>>>>>>> Change <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/climate-change/>,
>>>>>>> consciousness<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/consciousness/>,
>>>>>>> Courses <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/courses/>, Earth Ways'
>>>>>>> Farm<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/earth-ways-farm/>,
>>>>>>> Education <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/education/>,
>>>>>>> Environment<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/environment/>,
>>>>>>> evolution <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/evolution/>, Forest
>>>>>>> Garden<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/forest-garden/>,
>>>>>>> Gardening <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/gardening/>, Natural
>>>>>>> Pest
>>>>>>> Control
>>>>>> <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/natural-pest-control/>, Nature
>>>>>>> Connection <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/nature-connection/>,
>>>>>>> News
>>>>>>> & Events <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/news-events/>,
>>>>>>> Organic<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/organic/>,
>>>>>>> Permaculture <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/permaculture/>,
>>>>>>> Survival
>>>>>>> Skills <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/survival-skills/>,
>>>>>>> Tracking<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/tracking/>,
>>>>>>> Wilderness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wilderness/>,
>>>>>>> Wildlife<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wildlife/>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> July 4th, 6PM? July 18th, 1PM  2014. Anam Cara, Inverness, Highland,
>>>>>>> Scotland.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This holistic approach towards permaculture is a exciting new
>>>>>>> combination.
>>>>>>> It reflects the pioneering permaculture vision that Earth Ways has
>>>>>>> developed over the years.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Permaculture starts with nature connection and is only complete when
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> are as healthy as they can be.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Permaculture is designing sustainable systems, modelled on nature.
>>>>>>> Re-connecting with nature to better understand her is an essential
>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>> step.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I?m pleased to tell you that the course will be of very high 
>>>>>>> standards.
>>>>>>> Even  better than the last one with our new addition to our crew:
>>>>>>> Klaudia
>>>>>>> van Gool. Ludwig Appeltans, Klaudia van Gool, Greg Sommer and Georgina
>>>>>>> Richardson will offer a fantastic 14 day intensive course at Anam
>>>>>>> Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>in Inverness.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Learn about natural systems and deepen your understanding of
>>>>>>> Permaculture
>>>>>>> Design, Forest Gardening and ecosystems. Be(come) connected to nature
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> learn how to design a permaculture diet with Georgina Richardson. She
>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>> natural health chef. She will show us how to design ?a permaculture
>>>>>>> diet?
>>>>>>> and feed us this way for the full 14 days enabling us to experience 
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> body and mind feels when fed so healthily. Food that is good for the
>>>>>>> planet
>>>>>>> AND good for us!
>>>>>>> You will also have the opportunity to spend some time foraging,
>>>>>>> relaxing
>>>>>>> and exploring Scottish Highland?s nature, where you can discover the
>>>>>>> magnificent wildlife present in this stunning location.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The delightful flavour of this Permaculture Design Course will be
>>>>>>> upheld by
>>>>>>> the 4 awesome teachers working together, with the accents of Nature
>>>>>>> Connection and Natural Health making it a PDC with distinction.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Upon successful completion you will be awarded a certificate in
>>>>>>> Permaculture Design from the Permaculture Association Britain.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> We?d love you to join us.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> More pictures from the last PDC?s can be seen here:
>>>>>>> http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/gallery/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> or here:
>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/72157634771197666/<http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/72157634771197666/>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> <>
>>>>>>> FAQ
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *- Why would I choose this course over other PDC?s? *
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If you?re curious why I am so confident that this course is so
>>>>>>> wonderful,
>>>>>>> please read on:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  - Teaching quality is unusually high with 4 teachers and unusual
>>>>>>> yet
>>>>>>>  effective teaching methods. We each teach from our strengths,
>>>>>> lifting the
>>>>>>>  level of the course higher, with more personal assistance.
>>>>>> Please check out
>>>>>>>  the biography of the teachers to see what excellence we have to
>>>>>> share with
>>>>>>>  you.
>>>>>>>  - Perfect location; our venue is the beautiful Anam
>>>>>>> Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>,
>>>>>>>  surrounded by the beautiful Scottish wildlife, which gives us
>>>>>>> excellent
>>>>>>>  nature observation opportunities.
>>>>>>>  - Our course gives you the opportunity to experience what life can
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>  like when we are treating our body to the healthiest and most
>>>>>> balanced diet
>>>>>>>  one can design on a normal household budget. We will also give you
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>  tools you need to develop a permaculture diet.
>>>>>>>  - The course will be taught on the premises of a beautiful new
>>>>>>>  permaculture garden, which gives you an -on site- example of
>>>>>> how to change
>>>>>>>  an organic garden into a permaculture garden and practice the
>>>>>> permaculture
>>>>>>>  principles you?ll learn.
>>>>>>>  - A wide variety of choice to make your practice design with a wide
>>>>>>>  variety of expertise available from the teachers.
>>>>>>>  - Most Permaculture Design courses offer only the 72 hours tuition
>>>>>>>  required for the certificate. We also offer many more optional
>>>>>>> learning
>>>>>>>  opportunities, making the course a holistic wonderful learning
>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Message: 4
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST)
>>>>>>> From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
>>>>>>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>> <1390693399.39730.YahooMailNeo@web142301.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a
>>>>>> bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know how
>>>>>> to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
>>>>>> ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
>>>>>> dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every
>>>>>> pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
>>>>>> forest).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
>>>>>> Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me and
>>>>>> his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she was
>>>>>> complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy. Perhaps
>>>>>> it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
>>>>>> productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
>>>>>> the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
>>>>>> Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together.?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
>>>>>> minutes 37 seconds.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Michael Pilarski
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
>>>>>>> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
>>>>>> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
>>>>>>> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited
>>>>>>> my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of Permaculture 
>>>>>>> Design,
>>>>>>> offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture "
>>>>>>> was?
>>>>>>> ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
>>>>>>> different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
>>>>>>> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
>>>>>>> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all
>>>>>>> aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
>>>>>>> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
>>>>>>> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
>>>>>>> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
>>>>>>> permaculture design .
>>>>>>> As a permaculture design professional I help clients, starting from
>>>>>>> where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
>>>>>>> sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
>>>>>>> sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch,
>>>>>>> sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
>>>>>>> Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and
>>>>>>> what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
>>>>>>> succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the
>>>>>>> yields the client seeks.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read such 
>>>>>>> self
>>>>>>> critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
>>>>>>> associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
>>>>>>> forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
>>>>>>> experience .
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
>>>>>>> gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real advice.
>>>>>>> Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to short sighted
>>>>>>> comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or
>>>>>>> anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no
>>>>>>> work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I
>>>>>>> met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my
>>>>>>> fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great
>>>>>>> Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
>>>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
>>>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
>>>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
>>>>>>> Publishing, 2011
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
>>>>>>> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
>>>>>>>> critical with some expressions of PC-
>>>>>>>> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of
>>>>>>>> the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in
>>>>>>>> organic food production...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
>>>>>>>> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.)
>>>>>>>> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
>>>>>>>> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
>>>>>>>> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one
>>>>>>>> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
>>>>>>>> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
>>>>>>>> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
>>>>>>>> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not
>>>>>>>> the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
>>>>>>>> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
>>>>>>>> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and
>>>>>>>> its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
>>>>>>>> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
>>>>>>>> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
>>>>>>>> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
>>>>>>>> power of PC concepts get grounded.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Holger
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
>>>>>>>>> The Trouble with Permaculture
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
>>>>>>>>> uninformed
>>>>>>>>> are up to
>>>>>>>> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
>>>>>>>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
>>>>>>>> www.tierramor.org
>>>>>>>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
>>>>>>>> Consultas y asesor?as
>>>>>>>> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
>>>>>>>> list maintenance:
>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>>>>> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
>>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
>>>>>> list maintenance:
>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>>>> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>>>>>> Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Message: 5
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:20:44 -0600
>>>>>>> From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: [permaculture] 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd
>>>>>>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>>>>> Message-ID: <7571FF21-5F54-4CB4-A0A6-D21647B2FFB2@mmrfbz.org>
>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This will be our 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course. MMRF has
>>>>>> been managed to agroforestry over the last 25 years and is one of the
>>>>>> oldest permaculture projects in Central America. Come take a PDC with
>>>>>> great teachers at a very well established permaculture project.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course, February 10th through 22nd,
>>>>>> 2014 February 10th through 22nd, 2014
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Place: Maya Mountain Research Farm San Pedro Columbia, BELIZE
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Instructors: Albert Bates, Marisha Auerbach, Nicole Foss and
>>>>>> Christopher Nesbitt with local guest instructors.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cost:USD1250/Belize$2500 includes organic farm fresh meals, all
>>>>>> course materials and expeditions*, comfortable accommodation in the
>>>>>> farm, and a certificate of Permaculture Design upon completion of the
>>>>>> course.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> For Details, or to register, please contact Christopher at
>>>>>> info(a)mmrfbz.org.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Through lecture, discussion, small groups, site visits and hands on
>>>>>> experience, participants will gain the tools to create sustainable,
>>>>>> ecologically based homes, farms, businesses and communities. Tucked
>>>>>> into the foothills of the Maya Mountains, two miles up river from the
>>>>>> village of San Pedro Columbia in southern Belize, Maya Mountain
>>>>>> Research Farm is a working demonstration farm and registered NGO that
>>>>>> promotes sustainable agriculture, appropriate technology and food
>>>>>> security using permaculture principles and applied biodiversity.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> With over 25 years of organic management and conversion from an
>>>>>> abandoned cattle and citrus farm to a polyculture, MMRF is one of
>>>>>> Central Americas oldest permaculture farms. Students will get a
>>>>>> chance to see decades worth of design work applied at this venue. A
>>>>>> fun video of the 2009 PDC is here, and some footage from the 2010 PDC
>>>>>> on Mexican TV, in Spanish is here, and here.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Teachers: Albert Bates is a former lawyer, paramedic, graphic
>>>>>> artist and author of eleven books on energy, environment and law, and
>>>>>> produced two films on ecovillages. He is the founder of the
>>>>>> Ecovillage Network of the Americas and was active in the creation of
>>>>>> the Global Ecovillage Network. He has lectured and universities and
>>>>>> government agencies and worked on natural buildings, village
>>>>>> infrastructure, and permaculture landscapes on 6 continents. He has
>>>>>> been teaching permaculture design courses since 1994.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Marisha Auerbach has been actively practicing, studying, and
>>>>>> teaching Permaculture in the Pacific Northwest for over a decade,
>>>>>> specializing in food production, biodiversity, seedsaving, ecology,
>>>>>> and useful plants. Her practical experience has been gained from
>>>>>> living and working in both urban and rural locations. She currently
>>>>>> teaches permaculture courses at Oregon State University, Pacific
>>>>>> University, Bastyr University, and Portland Community College.
>>>>>> Marisha works with many organizations including The City Repair
>>>>>> Project, Aprovecho Education Center, Lost Valley Education Center,
>>>>>> Fertile Ground Community Center, and Planet Repair. Marisha holds an
>>>>>> advanced certificate in Permaculture Aid Work and has participated in
>>>>>> permaculture projects from the forests of Vietnam to the Rocky
>>>>>> Mountains of the United States to the stressed conditions of Haiti.
>>>>>> She can be found online at www.herbnwisdom.com.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Nicole Foss is Senior Editor of The Automatic Earth, a big-picture
>>>>>> website. Since January 2008, she and her writing partner have been
>>>>>> chronicling and interpreting the on-going global credit crunch as the
>>>>>> most pressing aspect of our current multi-faceted predicament. The
>>>>>> site integrates finance, energy, environment, psychology, population
>>>>>> and real politik in order to explain why we find ourselves in a state
>>>>>> of crisis and what we can do about it. Nicole is also an
>>>>>> international speaker on energy and global finance. She has lectured
>>>>>> in hundreds of locations across North America, Europe, Australia and
>>>>>> New Zealand, and has made many media appearances in a variety of
>>>>>> countries. In addition, Nicole has been involved in teaching on
>>>>>> permaculture design certificate courses in Central America and
>>>>>> Europe. Prior to the establishment of The Automatic Earth, Nicole was
>>>>>> Editor of The Oil Drum Canada, where she wrote on peak oil and
>>>>>> finance. She also ran the Agri-Energy Producers' Associati
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> of Ontario, where she focused on farm-based biogas projects,
>>>>>> grid connections for renewable energy and Feed-In Tariff policy
>>>>>> development. While living in the UK she was a Research Fellow at the
>>>>>> Oxford Institute for Energy Studies, where she specialized in nuclear
>>>>>> safety in Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union, and conducted
>>>>>> research into electricity policy at the EU level. She also has
>>>>>> significant previous experience practicing as an environmental
>>>>>> consultant. Her academic qualifications include a BSc in Biology from
>>>>>> Carleton University in Canada (where she focused primarily on
>>>>>> neuroscience and psychology), a post-graduate diploma in air and
>>>>>> water pollution control, the common professional examination in law
>>>>>> and an LLM in international law in development from the University of
>>>>>> Warwick in the UK. She was granted the University Medal for the top
>>>>>> science graduate in 1988 and the law school prize for the top law
>>>>>> school graduate in 1997.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Christopher Nesbitt is the founder and director of Maya Mountain
>>>>>> Research Farm. He is a farmer, and a pioneer in tropical agroforestry
>>>>>> and permaculture, having lived and studied agriculture in Belize
>>>>>> since the mid 1980s. He has been engaged in agroforestry,
>>>>>> permaculture, renewable energy through his work on the farm and
>>>>>> elsewhere. Christopher worked for Green & Blacks, an organic
>>>>>> chocolate company, from 1997 to 2004 on issues related to organic
>>>>>> certification, Fairtrade certification and extension. He was a
>>>>>> founding member of Belize Organic Producers Association and has
>>>>>> worked as a consultant for the Government of Belize?s Ministry of
>>>>>> Health, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries Department. He represented
>>>>>> Belize in workshops in Nicaragua, Panama, Costa Rica and Guatemala.
>>>>>> He installs photovoltaic and photovoltaic/wind hybrid systems in
>>>>>> protected areas, schools, village level photovoltaic water pumps, and
>>>>>> teaches agroforestry.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> A scholarship for this Permaculture Design Course is being offered
>>>>>> by Maya Mountain Research Farm in memory of Anne Bulford. Anne
>>>>>> Bulford graduated from Antioch College, was active in organic
>>>>>> agriculture in Ohio, working at Ohio Ecological Food and Farming
>>>>>> Association, and died in November, 2008 of cancer. She has two boys,
>>>>>> Peter and Skyler, who live with Annes mother, Sally. Applicants must
>>>>>> be Belizean working in agriculture anywhere in Belize or the
>>>>>> communities adjacent to the Maya Mountains in Belize, and a farmer,
>>>>>> extension officer or community leader. To apply, please contact
>>>>>> Christopher Nesbitt with a description of the work you are doing, and
>>>>>> a resume or CV and explain why you would like to participate in this
>>>>>> course.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *Fees for entry into National Parks or Archeological Reserves must
>>>>>> be paid by the students.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _____________________________
>>>>>>> Christopher Nesbitt
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Maya Mountain Research Farm
>>>>>>> San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
>>>>>>> PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
>>>>>>> BELIZE,
>>>>>>> Central America
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Country code 501-630-4386
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> www.mmrfbz.org
>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Message: 6
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:30:55 -0500
>>>>>>> From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey@bioshelter.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
>>>>>>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, Michael Pilarski
>>>>>>> <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> Message-ID: <20140125203055.g34df5xpz448s8wo@webmail.bioshelter.com>
>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
>>>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
>>>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
>>>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
>>>>>>> Publishing, 2011
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
>>>>>>> <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.?
>>>>>>>> I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a
>>>>>>>> bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
>>>>>>>> how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
>>>>>>>> ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
>>>>>>>> dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every
>>>>>>>> pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
>>>>>>>> forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
>>>>>>>> Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me
>>>>>>>> and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she
>>>>>>>> was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
>>>>>>>> Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
>>>>>>>> productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
>>>>>>>> the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
>>>>>>>> Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together.?
>>>>>>>> here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
>>>>>>>> minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Michael Pilarski
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
>>>>>>>> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
>>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
>>>>>>>> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
>>>>>>>> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
>>>>>>>> visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
>>>>>>>> Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned
>>>>>>>> where the "permaculture " was?
>>>>>>>> ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
>>>>>>>> different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
>>>>>>>> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
>>>>>>>> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses
>>>>>>>> all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
>>>>>>>> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
>>>>>>>> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
>>>>>>>> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
>>>>>>>> permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I help
>>>>>>>> clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals to live
>>>>>>>> a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a
>>>>>>>> forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix.
>>>>>>>> Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
>>>>>>>> different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat and
>>>>>>>> where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also includes
>>>>>>>> time management, succession planning, resource conservation, and a
>>>>>>>> goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the article
>>>>>>>> in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with an open
>>>>>>>> mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The experience
>>>>>>>> the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by decades, and
>>>>>>>> comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of Bill
>>>>>>>> Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not confuse
>>>>>>>> his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such presentation by
>>>>>>>> Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by novices? of
>>>>>>>> permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have taught
>>>>>>>> permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not think
>>>>>>>> mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in 1981
>>>>>>>> and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He wrote
>>>>>>>> in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed it
>>>>>>>> for me. Work indeed!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
>>>>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
>>>>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
>>>>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
>>>>>>>> Publishing, 2011
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
>>>>>>>> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
>>>>>>>>> critical with some expressions of PC-
>>>>>>>>> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some
>>>>>>>> of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
>>>>>>>> in > organic food production... >
>>>>>>>>> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The >
>>>>>>>> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) >
>>>>>>>> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also >
>>>>>>>> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC >
>>>>>>>> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one >
>>>>>>>> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since >
>>>>>>>> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some >
>>>>>>>> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
>>>>>>>>> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly
>>>>>>>> not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
>>>>>>>>> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
>>>>>>>>> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
>>>>>>>>> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"),
>>>>>>>> and > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", >
>>>>>>>> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
>>>>>>>>> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve >
>>>>>>>> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative >
>>>>>>>> power of PC concepts get grounded. >
>>>>>>>>> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Holger
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
>>>>>>>>>> The Trouble with Permaculture
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
>>>>>>>>>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
>>>>>>>>>> uninformed
>>>>>>>>>> are up to
>>>>>>>>> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
>>>>>>>>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
>>>>>>>>> www.tierramor.org
>>>>>>>>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
>>>>>>>>> Consultas y asesor?as
>>>>>>>>> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
>>>>>>>>> list maintenance:
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>>>>>> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with >
>>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and >
>>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
>>>>>>>> list maintenance:
>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>>>>> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
>>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
>>>>>>>> list maintenance:
>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>>>>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
>>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Message: 7
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:22:25 -0800 (PST)
>>>>>>> From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
>>>>>>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>> <1390706545.88940.YahooMailNeo@web161004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think my main objection to the article is that the author seems
>>>>>> to have interacted with only the most ignorant armchair
>>>>>> permaculturists and not looked at the positive. It's not a very
>>>>>> balanced article and comes across as a bit of sour grapes to me. ?I
>>>>>> do agree that there is dogma in permaculture and there are
>>>>>> assumptions being made by some in the movement. I agree we need to
>>>>>> document our results and am happy that activity is increasing. But
>>>>>> I'm not ready to throw out the concept of "lazy gardening" when I get
>>>>>> such huge yields in the first year with little work from some small
>>>>>> plots in my yard, ?by using the old standbys of sheet mulch,
>>>>>> hugulkulture, and unfamiliar (but delicious) perennial and tropical
>>>>>> vegetables (which are far more suited to my ecosystem than lettuce
>>>>>> and tomatoes). As Michael said, the work to yield ratio is very
>>>>>> attractive. Is it economically viable? It certainly cut down on my
>>>>>> fresh food bill, but I'm well aware that what I do in
>>>>>>> my yard is not viable for a market garden. Using true cost
>>>>>> accounting and measuring inputs vs outputs, I made a very healthy net
>>>>>> profit on it for the planet and my own well being however. Am I
>>>>>> "wasting good urban farm land?" My yard was Florida sugar sand, til I
>>>>>> transformed it with the local organic waste stream. Many urban plots
>>>>>> contain depleted and compacted soil not to mention heavy metals and
>>>>>> chemicals - far from ideal farm land! Am I growing greens and fruit
>>>>>> instead of carbs? Guilty as charged, but I eat greens daily. What
>>>>>> would be the footprint for me to buy them instead of grow them? I can
>>>>>> buy rice in bulk once a month. I go to my garden daily for fresh
>>>>>> greens. Do I like food forests? Yes, love them (but in an urban area
>>>>>> would call them edible forest gardens as a more accurate term). Do I
>>>>>> wait years for them to be productive? That has never been my
>>>>>> understanding of how to design an urban forest garden, nor would it
>>>>>> be the preferred way to do
>>>>>>> commercial agroforestry when possible to do otherwise. Do I think
>>>>>> that market gardening is not "good permaculture?" I'm well aware of
>>>>>> how much food my city consumes and where a good chunk of that
>>>>>> realistically is going to come from. We need hundreds of market
>>>>>> gardens that incorporate permaculture principles. ?I am doing my part
>>>>>> to make it easier for market gardeners to be successful. Meanwhile, I
>>>>>> garden because I love it and I love the yield from it. It offers
>>>>>> balance and a regular connection with the natural world.?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There is a place for both market gardeners and back yard food
>>>>>> foresters. We do not have to fight or put each other down. :-) ?There
>>>>>> is so much good happening amongst new urban permaculturists who
>>>>>> haven't gardened much before but nonetheless are turning their lawns
>>>>>> into abundant jungles of edibles. What are they doing right? How can
>>>>>> that be improved upon? ? It's also really exciting to see the work
>>>>>> that Darrell Frey (I enjoyed your book, Darrell) and other market
>>>>>> gardeners and small farmers are doing as they combine the principles
>>>>>> of permaculture with their already substantial knowledge of farming.?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sometimes new designers pass judgment on the way I'm doing things
>>>>>> too - I suppose it is human nature to some degree. I just tell them -
>>>>>> "I will be very interested in seeing your project in 2-3 years. Be
>>>>>> sure to let me know how it goes!" with a friendly grin. :-) ?
>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:31 PM, Darrell E. Frey
>>>>>> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
>>>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
>>>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
>>>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
>>>>>>> Publishing, 2011
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
>>>>>>> <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.?
>>>>>>>> I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a
>>>>>>>> bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
>>>>>>>> how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
>>>>>>>> ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
>>>>>>>> dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every
>>>>>>>> pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
>>>>>>>> forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
>>>>>>>> Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me
>>>>>>>> and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she
>>>>>>>> was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy.
>>>>>>>> Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
>>>>>>>> productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
>>>>>>>> the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
>>>>>>>> Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together.?
>>>>>>>> here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
>>>>>>>> minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Michael Pilarski
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
>>>>>>>> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
>>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
>>>>>>>> <defrey@bioshelter.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> ? I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
>>>>>>>> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
>>>>>>>> visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
>>>>>>>> Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned
>>>>>>>> where the "permaculture " was?
>>>>>>>> ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
>>>>>>>> different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
>>>>>>>> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
>>>>>>>> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses
>>>>>>>> all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
>>>>>>>> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
>>>>>>>> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
>>>>>>>> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
>>>>>>>> permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I help
>>>>>>>> clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals to live
>>>>>>>> a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a
>>>>>>>> forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix.
>>>>>>>> Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do both in
>>>>>>>> different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat and
>>>>>>>> where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also includes
>>>>>>>> time management, succession planning, resource conservation, and a
>>>>>>>> goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the article
>>>>>>>> in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with an open
>>>>>>>> mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The experience
>>>>>>>> the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by decades, and
>>>>>>>> comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of Bill
>>>>>>>> Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not confuse
>>>>>>>> his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such presentation by
>>>>>>>> Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by novices? of
>>>>>>>> permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have taught
>>>>>>>> permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not think
>>>>>>>> mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in 1981
>>>>>>>> and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He wrote
>>>>>>>> in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed it
>>>>>>>> for me. Work indeed!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Darrell E. Frey
>>>>>>>> Three Sisters Farm
>>>>>>>> defrey@bioshelter.com
>>>>>>>> www.bioshelter.com
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
>>>>>>>> Publishing, 2011
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
>>>>>>>> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
>>>>>>>>> critical with some expressions of PC-
>>>>>>>>> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some
>>>>>>>> of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
>>>>>>>> in > organic food production... >
>>>>>>>>> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The >
>>>>>>>> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) >
>>>>>>>> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also >
>>>>>>>> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC >
>>>>>>>> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one >
>>>>>>>> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since >
>>>>>>>> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some >
>>>>>>>> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
>>>>>>>>> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly
>>>>>>>> not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
>>>>>>>>> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
>>>>>>>>> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
>>>>>>>>> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"),
>>>>>>>> and > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", >
>>>>>>>> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
>>>>>>>>> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve >
>>>>>>>> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative >
>>>>>>>> power of PC concepts get grounded. >
>>>>>>>>> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Holger
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
>>>>>>>>>> The Trouble with Permaculture
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
>>>>>>>>>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what the
>>>>>>>>>> uninformed
>>>>>>>>>> are up to
>>>>>>>>> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger@tierramor.org
>>>>>>>>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
>>>>>>>>> www.tierramor.org
>>>>>>>>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
>>>>>>>>> Consultas y asesor?as
>>>>>>>>> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
>>>>>>>>> list maintenance:
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>>>>>> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with >
>>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and >
>>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
>>>>>>>> list maintenance:
>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>>>>> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
>>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
>>>>>>>> list maintenance:
>>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>>>>> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>>>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
>>>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
>>>>>> list maintenance:
>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>>>> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>>>>>> Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
>>>>>> list maintenance:
>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>>>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>>>>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 132, Issue 26
>>>>>>> *********************************************
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
>>>>>> list maintenance:
>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>>>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
>>>>>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
>>>>> maintenance:
>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with 
>>>>> integrated
>>>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>>>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ---
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>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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>>>> maintenance:
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with 
>>>> integrated 
>>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced 
>>>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list 
>>> maintenance:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>> Google message archive search:
>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated 
>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced 
>>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus 
>> protection is active.
>> http://www.avast.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list 
>> maintenance:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>> Google message archive search:
>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>> http://www.ipermie.net 
>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated 
>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced 
>> nature-compatible human habitat 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list 
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net 
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements 
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible 
> human habitat