permaculture

[Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

Darren and Steve,

I think the dogma may be evolving. I see more and more permaculturists 
assuming a practical view of things as opposed to pure idealism with no 
relation to the real world or how things are working here or where they are 
headed.  The real measure is in what we produce. How well does it work? At 
Pine Ridge, I'm working on a seven generation program of getting edible 
forests installed. It might actually take seven generations, because of the 
harsh conditions and challenges there! :-0 

On the other hand, one of our students is bringing in Will Allen's program 
which will feed hungry, diseased people within one season - year around, and 
will reverse the stat of the highest rate of juvenile diabetes in the 
country, highest infant mortality rate, and a life expectancy of 49 years for 
a male Lakota. They have been being fed poison food since the 1800's by our 
government. They need triage, not lofty ideals. 

We're working on a greenhouse too - that will be passively heated and can 
grow permaculture plants like moringa. I've seen how harsh the weather is 
there - it takes years for a fruit tree to start bearing IF it survives at 
all. 

It is one thing to have lofty standards and another to manifest them. We can 
sit back in our armchairs and judge others for what they do, while getting 
little done ourselves except talk about theory, or we can create a better 
system that can help people do what they do even better, like Will Allen who 
is doing tremendous work, making tremendous change for a lot of people who 
are currently eating white bread and other toxic food and suffering from slow 
poisoning - and are facing real starvation if economic trends continue. 
Because of Will's programs, people are now eating microgreens, fish, fresh 
salad, fresh eggs, etc, with no chemicals, and teaching others how to do so.  
He is improving thousands of people's lives. He is not the enemy. He is a big 
step in the right direction and deserves a lot of support and admiration from 
our community, in my view. 


For me, there is a balance of people care and earth care. We need to do both. 
And change is gradient, no matter how you look at it. I don't know a single 
permaculturist who lives with no petroleum in their lives whatsoever. How can 
we use permaculture design to speed our evolution on a massive scale that 
would actually make a real difference? When we look at the big picture, the 
design really changes. We need to work WITH the existing system. We have no 
choice, because it is what exists - not our ideals. 

I appreciate what a number of you on this list are doing (like Darren) to 
address making changes on a meaningful scale and being real about what that 
actually means. 

Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition



On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 6:43 PM, Heenan Doherty 
<heenandoherty@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Thanks Steve,

I get it and my response to Toby illustrates why I developed the Regrarians
concept so that I could step outside of the Permaculture dogma that rears
its head from time to time and is way too cloistering for me personally and
I know for many others too.

On any day I'll stand by the work of great people like Will Allen and
others using derivative aquaponics technologies, that in your somewhat
lofty standards wouldn't pass the "is this Permaculture" test, primarily as
they are feeding people a whole variety of nutritious food and not at all
leading to obesity.

I mean really, a city is hardly a system that is 'natural' and I don't care
to be drawn into some spiral of debate otherwise. However as the real
thesis of Permaculture is in its ethics, then systems such as Will Allen's
tick the boxes for mine and if they don't for you or anybody else then
demonstrate something that is more effective yourself and call it what you
like.

This whole thread reminds me of what Joel Salatin said to me years ago,
"...if the organics industry spent us much energy on localised food systems
as it does on certification then the war would be over..."

My response to Joel (and many clients) in this was that we needed the
concept of "uncertified rational" such that people do the best they can,
transparently and within their context and that their direct markets keep
them honest because when you are a food producer then there always more
consumers than producers...

Cheers,

Darren Doherty

Yours & Growing,

Lisa Heenan & Darren J. Doherty

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On 9 January 2014 09:52, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com> wrote:

> Darren Toby's comment far from sums anything up but does highlight the
> concern I have been expressing of a growing weaknening in Permaculture.
> When exponents especially  highly respected ones support artificial systems
> calling them very good examples of Permaculture Design then even these
> people Don't Get It. Or is this an American problem ? which is the home of
> obesity and many other ills of artificial systems that are seemingly taken
> as norms of every day life. Where the difference can be seen or even
> intellectually understood ?
>
> This is no summary it is the beginning of a debate that needs attention to
> how the entire teaching can be strengthened. Perhaps again...where is the
> solution to this problem ?...The European Teachers Network is presently
> answering it. Perhaps we could all learn of this....and get some delegation
> to their next conferences....Steve Hart
>
>
> On 3 January 2014 15:59, Heenan Doherty <heenandoherty@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks Toby for summing things up so well as you so often do. Cheers,
> > Darren
> >
> >
> > Yours & Growing,
> >
> > Lisa Heenan & Darren J. Doherty
> >
> > *LATEST NEWS*
> > *Darren J Doherty 'Regrarian' Introduction
> > (18min**s)*<http://youtu.be/MvVlzUv8D5U>
> > *Fields of Farmers Oceania Tour Feb-Mar 2014 - Aotearoa/NZ, Australia
> > <https://www.facebook.com/events/494457447291367/>*
> >
> > *Polyfaces Documentary Trailer - CONTRIBUTE TODAY!!
> > <http://www.heenandoherty.com/Polyfaces>'The Regrarians Handbook' (by
> > Darren Doherty & Andrew Jeeves) release in 2014
> > <http://www.regrarianshandbook.com/>*
> >
> > <http://www.regrarianshandbook.com>
> >
> >
> > * <http://www.heenandoherty.com>*
> >
> > *HeenanDoherty Pty. Ltd. (AU)*
> > *ACN 159 903 483 ABN 80 159 903 483*
> > *Regrarians Ltd. (AU)*
> > *ACN 165 750 023*
> > *International Education
> > *Regenerative Media & Products
> > *Broadacre Design & Development
> > *International Agent for Mr. Joel Salatin <http://polyfacefarms.com/>
> >
> > <http://www.Facebook.com/HeenanDoherty> <
> https://twitter.com/HeenanDoherty
> > >
> >
> > *Darren J. Doherty,*
> > Director, HeenanDoherty Pty. Ltd.
> > *Lisa J. Heenan & Darren J. Doherty,*
> > Directors, Regrarians Ltd.
> >
> > Web <http://www.heenandoherty.com>
> > <http://picasaweb.google.com/permaculture.biz>
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> > CV<https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxf-Mzo0q-Zbd2NhbXZsbWhDcmM/edit>
> >
> > HeenanDoherty P/L Trading
> > Conditions<
> >
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pR7x3CS-UmQ_Ca8s9JbvCCXYu_tQnxMicPfmWjauFys/edit
> > >
> > HeenanDoherty Blog <http://www.heenandoherty.com/_blog/Latest_News>
> >
> > skype: heenandoherty
> > phone (AU): +61 431 444 836
> > phone (UK): +44 (0) 7742 189 474
> > phone (US): +1 917 254 1736
> >
> > *Other Great Regrarian Links:*
> >
> > *www.RegenAG.co.uk <http://www.RegenAG.co.uk>*
> > *www.MasHumus.com <http://www.mashumus.com/>*
> > *www.RMSGadzia.com <http://www.rmsgadzia.com/>*
> > *www.PolyfaceFarms.com <http://www.polyfacefarms.com/>*
> > *www.SavoryInstitute.com <http://www.savoryinstitute.com>*
> > *www.HolisticManagement.org <http://www.holisticmanagement.org/>*
> > ___________________
> >
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> >
> > This message is only for the use of the addressee. The contents of this
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> legal
> > privilege is not waived by mistaken delivery. If you are not the intended
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> attachments
> > to the intended recipient please notify the sender by return email or by
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> > electronic medium.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4 January 2014 05:51, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I get that Steve believes that aquaponics can't be permaculture because
> > it
> > > is artificial. But that's not an argument, that's asserting an opinion.
> > > This is important because it gets to what permaculture is and isn't.
> What
> > > makes something part of permaculture?
> > >
> > > Yes, to me, too, "natural" is more desirable than "artificial" (tho I
> > > usually prefer drinking from a cup to lapping from a puddle). But the
> > > comparison of McDonalds to aquaponics is specious. McDonalds uses
> highly
> > > processed, chemically synthesized additives, non-organic, refined GMO
> > > grains, and hormone and antibiotic-laced, CAFO beef fed on poisonous,
> > > stripped distillers grain by-products, whose detrimental effect on
> health
> > > is well documented. Aquaponics provides whole plants grown organically,
> > in
> > > natural rock, water, and manure, with no processing or additives. Why
> > would
> > > those plants be less nutritious than the cattails and watercress from
> my
> > > neighbor's pond? I need to see data. We'll always disagree on that one.
> > >
> > > But natural and artificial are completely subjective terms—is a
> designed
> > > guild natural or artificial?--and that makes the artificial/natural
> > divide
> > > useless as a permaculture criteria. What determines inclusion in
> > > permaculture is not where a process falls on some subjective
> > > natural/artificial opinion scale, but whether it follows the ethics and
> > > principles, and is arrived at by the design methods of permaculture.
> > > Otherwise, permaculture is nothing but opinions.
> > >
> > > When David Holmgren stayed in my house about 10 years ago, we had a
> long
> > > talk about the natural vs artificial distinction, and David didn't
> think
> > it
> > > was a meaningful one. And from Bill's writings and the PDC I took from
> > him,
> > > he doesn't use it as a criteria to define permaculture, but rather uses
> > > metrics like "does it damage or preserve ecosystems? and "does it mimic
> > > natural cycles?" I'm going to side with the masters here.
> > >
> > > All agriculture is artificial. To me, "natural" means without
> > > technological intervention, and humans went "synthetic" as soon as we
> > > starting watering plants and selecting fat seeds 10,000 years ago. Some
> > > people argue that all farming is natural, others that only certain
> > farming
> > > is natural, others that no farming is natural, and they are all
> correct,
> > > because "natural" is not a definable word. It's a soothing but sloppy
> > term
> > > subject to opinion, not definition.
> > >
> > > When used as a basis for deciding if something is permaculture or not,
> > > opinions like "artificial" take us into cultism and the worst of hippie
> > > permaculture, where we believe our assumptions must be true because we
> > call
> > > something "natural," so we don't need to test, prove, or demonstrate
> > their
> > > accuracy. We can just say, it's natural, so it's clearly more
> nutritious
> > > and earth-friendly and astrally aligned than some "artificial" and
> > > therefore bad thing, a priori in a circular argument, without bothering
> > > with data. This is why permaculture has such a low regard in the
> > academic,
> > > scientific, and policy communities. Assertions about "artificial"
> > > aquaponics are a perfect example: opinion with no argument, criteria,
> or
> > > proof. When I argue that aquaponics is a closed-loop system that mimics
> > an
> > > estuary, Steve just counters with, you don't get it, it's artificial
> and
> > > permaculture is natural. That's a noble sentiment, but it's not an
> > > argument. Water from a metal rain tank is permaculture and natural,
> but a
> > > plant grown in a metal tank is not? Come on.
> > >
> > > Instead of vague opinions like "natural," we need clear, measurable
> > > criteria for describing permaculture, and we have them: Does it mimic
> > > ecosystem processes, fill important needs, and improve ecosystem
> health?
> > We
> > > have excellent tools for measuring all of those. We have no metric for
> > > "natural," which is why corporate capitalists have seized happily on
> the
> > > word, just as they like "no artificial ingredients," which allows MSG
> and
> > > preservatives. Those words can mean anything. Saying that permaculture
> > > excludes "artificial" things (and only certain artificial things;
> > cisterns
> > > and keyline plows are okay) takes us into muddiness and away from a
> > useful
> > > description.
> > >
> > > We need working, definable terms backed by data, not shiftable opinions
> > > that just have to be right because they seem more "natural" than
> others.
> > >
> > > Toby
> > > http://patternliteracy.com
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jan 2, 2014, at 2:52 PM, Steve Hart wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Toby et al...a point of clarification... you suggest
> > > >
> > > > "First, I'd avoid arguing that people who disagree with you don't
> "get
> > > > it."
> > > >
> > > > It is not a matter of agreeing with me at all. After all many do not
> in
> > > > many arguments I offer to many forums. I am presenting an argument to
> > > agree
> > > > with or not. It is not about agreeing with me or not, it is the
> > argument,
> > > > or the point I'm raising. . Clearly you don't get it either and still
> > > want
> > > > to argue that imitation systems like A&H are great models of
> > Permaculture
> > > > Design. I argue that they are clearly synthetic and imitation and an
> > > > example of the weakening of Permaculture.
> > > >
> > > > I am also more than aware that through Permaculture we learn a lot
> from
> > > > nature and do mimic many elements viz worm farms, hot composting,
> > swales
> > > > etc etc etc. I am also very much aware of the myriad of foods and
> > plants
> > > > that live naturally in water. I have also become aware of the values
> of
> > > > micro-nutrients and different energy fields to our own personal
> health.
> > > > Many which can not mimic or be imitated.
> > > >
> > > > Our impoverished communities do have great challenges. But I do not
> see
> > > > offering them artificial systems as their solutions to the crap they
> > have
> > > > available in their stores. MacDonalds probably uses this argument to.
> > We
> > > > need to go beyond that. CSA is one fine example.
> > > >
> > > > As for weak PDCs this probably is the root cause to an unenlightened
> > > > collective global family we have. Probably through a result of too
> > great
> > > a
> > > > demand and not enough supply. So untrained uneducated inexperienced
> > > > teachers have stood up. So our challenge for the years ahead is to
> > > consider
> > > > ways of strengthening the whole dynamic of Permaculture teaching.
>  But
> > > > suggesting artificial systems are organic and great design models I'm
> > > > afraid is not the avenue to address such. We need to strive for
> greater
> > > > solutions and seek greater models while constantly challenging all
> > > systems
> > > > especially the weaknesses and discarding them.
> > > > Steve Hart
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 2 January 2014 13:00, <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
> > > >>        permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > >>
> > > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > >>        http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> > > >>
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> > > >>
> > > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > >> than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Today's Topics:
> > > >>
> > > >>   1. Re: The weakening of Permaculture. (Toby Hemenway)
> > > >>   2. Watch Vanishing of the Bees online | Free | Hulu (Lawrence
> > London)
> > > >>   3. Re: Aquaponics: artificial? (georg parlow)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >> Message: 1
> > > >> Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 21:33:30 -0800
> > > >> From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > > >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The weakening of Permaculture.
> > > >> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > >> Message-ID: <
> B3E5259C-0F21-4714-8719-E5D97085D5B3@patternliteracy.com
> > >
> > > >> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
> > > >>
> > > >> First, I'd avoid arguing that people who disagree with you don't
> "get
> > > it."
> > > >> It's tempting to retort that someone who dogmatically says that
> > > aquaponics
> > > >> isn't permaculture needs a remedial PDC, too, but that's too rude
> for
> > > me to
> > > >> ever say!  The points Steve is making are elementary permaculture:
> > mimic
> > > >> nature and don't work against it, avoid "artificial" systems, grow
> > > healthy
> > > >> food. I think we here are all smart enough to get them. And I agree
> > with
> > > >> all of them. We just see their application differently.
> > > >>
> > > >> This is why I am continuing with this thread. Steve seems to be
> saying
> > > >> that it's only permaculture if it's made in the same form nature
> uses,
> > > and
> > > >> I think we are better guided by the processes, principles, and
> systems
> > > of
> > > >> nature rather than by whether a plant grows in dirt or not,  and
> > that's
> > > a
> > > >> critical distinction (how amended can soil be before it's not
> > "natural,"
> > > >> anyway? 2% peat moss? 50%?). I don't think of permaculture as a
> thing,
> > > as
> > > >> something you can point to and say "This is (or is not)
> permaculture."
> > > If a
> > > >> permaculture design process was used to arrive at a decision, then
> > that
> > > is
> > > >> a permacultural application. And I have seen excellent design
> > processes
> > > >> that arrive at aquaponics as part of a permaculture system.
> > > >>
> > > >> I need to see data showing that aquaponics food is less nutritious
> > than
> > > >> soil-grown. I see no basis. Nature grows many plants in water. In
> > fact,
> > > the
> > > >> controlled conditions of aquaponics should give superb nutrient
> > uptake.
> > > >> Plants stressed by the vagaries of soil and weather usually have
> fewer
> > > >> nutrients than crops that grow evenly and quickly via ample access
> to
> > > food,
> > > >> water, and warmth.
> > > >>
> > > >> If permaculture is about mimicking nature in the way Steve suggests,
> > we
> > > >> are doing it all wrong. Nature does not do keyline plowing, or
> > planting
> > > on
> > > >> contour, or zoning by frequency of use, or grafting, or hot
> > composting,
> > > or
> > > >> worm bins, nor does it build earthworks in rational ways. Few of our
> > > >> methods mimic the form of nature.
> > > >>
> > > >> That's because we're designing, which is something nature does not
> do.
> > > >> Permaculture mimics nature's processes and systems, not the form or
> > > >> objects, so we will often arrive at forms (like aquaponics or a
> swale)
> > > that
> > > >> don't look like nature's form, but the processes are. Aquaponics is
> a
> > > >> superb mimic of an estuarine ecosystem, using the same natural
> > processes
> > > >> and nutrients.
> > > >>
> > > >> A basic tenet is that permaculturists design for specific sites and
> > > >> conditions. Do I want to see aquaponics supplant soil-based systems?
> > Of
> > > >> course not; I'm not an idiot. In most cases, soil-based growing is
> > more
> > > >> appropriate than aquaponics. Do I see specific conditions when
> > > aquaponics
> > > >> fits all the criteria of permaculture design as the best method to
> > fill
> > > >> important needs? Absolutely.
> > > >>
> > > >> A perfect role for aquaponics in permaculture design is an urban
> > setting
> > > >> where soil is toxic or absent, land is too dear for food growing,
> > where
> > > >> animals can't be raised for food, in "food deserts" where all food
> > sold
> > > in
> > > >> a region is junk (it is a privilege to be able to choose, or afford,
> > or
> > > >> grow healthy food, one denied to many urbanites).
> > > >>
> > > >> I've seen several great examples of this. One is the aquaponics
> > systems
> > > in
> > > >> Will Allen's Growing Power site in Milwaukee, another the GrowHaus
> in
> > > >> Denver. Both of these are in impoverished areas; the GrowHaus is in
> a
> > > food
> > > >> desert, a polluted industrial area of low-income people of color.
> > Their
> > > >> large aquaponics systems provide not just fresh organic food in
> place
> > of
> > > >> the poisonous crap in local stores, but income opportunities for the
> > > >> locals, a social nexus, business experience, farm training, and
> > > education
> > > >> around food, agricultural traditions, social justice, whole systems,
> > and
> > > >> community activism.
> > > >>
> > > >> If that's a "weakening" of permaculture rather than one of the best
> > > >> examples in the world of deep permaculture, I'm a monkey's uncle.
> And
> > > that
> > > >> is why I would never be dogmatic about whether an object is or is
> not
> > > >> permaculture. It is about where it fits in the system, and very
> little
> > > >> about what it is made of.
> > > >>
> > > >> And I love what Steve Waldron wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> The great strength of the aquaponics system is that it really grabs
> > > >>> people's attention and gets them interested in feedback loops and
> > > >>> plant/animal synergies.  It's subversive eco-pedagogy at its best.
> > > >>
> > > >> That is great permaculture design.
> > > >>
> > > >> Happy New Year to all,
> > > >>
> > > >> Toby
> > > >> http://patternliteracy.com
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
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> *Steve Hart*
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> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
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Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
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>From jasongerhardt@gmail.com  Thu Jan  9 11:30:40 2014
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Steve, All,
This debate doesn't really seem to be about aquaponics. Steve, what it
sounds like you are saying is the promotion of "unnatural" technologies
like aquaponics are weakening the hard line that permaculture has held for
all these years. I'd say looking down through the history of the idea, that
hard line is very much a swinging pendulum. It seems you want the pendulum
to stop at a more pure state (natural, good, or whatever). I would suggest
that stopping the pendulum swing is what would weaken permaculture more.
The swinging action to me represents the context of design. Some things are
appropriate some places, other things appropriate in other places. It all
depends on the context in which one is designing. I think Toby, Darren, and
Koreen have done a great job providing examples of where aquaponics could
be appropriate. Making a list of, this is permaculture, and that isn't,
will undermine the power of the concept more than anything because it stops
the swinging of the design process. And, the design process is permaculture
DESIGN.

It is tempting to abandon the term "permaculture" altogether at times, but
then I remember that I still haven't found anything that comes as close to
an ethical and whole design system for human civilization. That, to me, is
what makes permaculture unique, not some arbitrary straight line drawn in
the sand that says things on this side are good and things on that side are
bad. I have come across zero justification for that kind of thinking in all
my studies and practice of permaculture. I have come across the phrase "it
depends" a lot. A. LOT.

What really comes to mind is Mollison's use of the latin words for "the
field lies open to the intellect" on PDC certificates, which some still
use. I don't actually know what inspired him to use these words, but I
think it summarizes the purpose of permaculture very well, in that, it is
the intellect that gets applied to each particular design problem to come
up with creative solutions appropriate to context. Drawing lines in the
sand, or dogma, is a closing of the intellectual process.

I too have reservations about aquaponics, but I also have reservations
about everything. What helps me break down those boundaries is thinking
through context to determine appropriateness. It seems that you have used
your intellect and arrived at aquaponics not being appropriate anywhere,
which is fine. It just means your designs and/or clients won't get to
consider that possibility. What troubles me is that you are choosing to say
that decision is permaculture and anybody who thinks otherwise doesn't
actually understand permaculture. I would like to offer that the decision
making process is permaculture, not the decisions themselves. This
difference is what really represents the weakening of permaculture to me.
AND, I agree with you, the weakening of permaculture is rampant, from this
perspective.

Kindly,
Jason Gerhardt
--

PO Box 4355
Boulder, CO 80306
720-496-9744