permaculture

["sals3" <sals3@cox.net>]

what I'm trying to say is you can set up a soil-food-web, hydroponically
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "sals3" <sals3@cox.net>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Cc: "Toby Hemenway" <toby@patternliteracy.com>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Natural hydroponics, aquatic foodweb & quality 
food


> > Been busy since yesterday and hadn't seen this thread (with three
> > separate subject headers) until now.  This is how it started (I wrote):
> >
> > > Wikipedia defines hydroponics as follows:
> > >
> > >      *Hydroponics*  is a subset of hydroculture and is a method of 
> > > growing
> > >      plants<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant>  using mineral nutrient
> > >      <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient>  solutions, in water, 
> > > without
> > >      soil<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil>. Terrestrial plants may be
> > >      grown with their roots<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root>  in the
> > >      mineral nutrient solution only or in an inert medium,
> > >
> > >
> > > Which the way I understand hydroponics:  There's no soil, no
> > > soil-food-web, no soil biology - it's not even agriculture (much less
> > > permaculture), which helps explain why I become distempered if I eat
> > > even a little (something which I would not knowingly do).
> > Lawrence took exception (he said it wasn't true) and cited you, and
> > wanted me to look for your earlier posts on this subject, (which i did
> > not intend to do), but then he reposted them, so I read them and must
> > admit that water (or swamp, or compost tea) can be a (very) biologically
> > active medium.
> >
> > In practice (however), in most cases it isn't, because most of those
> > that implement hydroponic systems aren't thing in biological terms. Be
> > that as it may, it CAN be built into the equation, if and when:
> >
> > Whoever doing it wants create an artificial ag production system and use
> > it for growing food because THAT (dear friends) is what all this is
> > about (sez me)!
> >
> > O lives in the Everglades or Okefenoee Swamp (on a house boat or an 
> > island)
> >
> > And are willing to forget about little things like Soil Tilth and all
> > that it stands for.
> >
> > So it's kind of an academic issue, IMO.
> >
> >
> >  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AlligatorFL2007.JPG
> >  <cid:part5.09060908.02080201@gmx.net>
> >
> > An alligator lounges on a log in the Okefenokee Swamp.
> >
> >
> > Earlier Today April 07, 2013 at 01:52 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
> >
> > > ... I have mixed feelings about hydroponics, like aquaponics and many 
> > > other tech-heavy forms of food production (which is most of modern ag: 
> > > How much of your food uses a tractor?)
> > Not a heck of a lot.  This is what I ate today:
> >
> > Guamuchiles Pithecellobium dulce
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pithecellobium_dulce>
> >
> > Mangoes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangifera_indica> (but not the
> > ones sent to the USA, which are all grafted varieties)
> >
> > Mamey Sopote <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pouteria_sapota>
> >
> > None of these are grafted.
> >
> > > Hydroponics makes sense to me in limited cases, such as where soils are 
> > > toxic and organic matter, access to land, and the other pieces of 
> > > "natural" agriculture are limited, and where tech resources are easy to 
> > > get. Cities, in other words.
> > I may live in a city at present (because politics and ag policy is what
> > I am doing) but my food (what keeps me alive) is brought in from outside
> > (but nearby).
> > > Hydroponics and such can't be considered regenerative, so I can see why 
> > > anyone slightly purist would loathe them.
> >
> > Don't loathe, I just don't eat them.
> >
> > > I would like to see us all growing food in healthy soil,
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > In (narrow) terms of nutrition, soil is a delivery medium to get 
> > > minerals into plants.
> >
> > IMO, soil is the result of a long term evolutionary process and an
> > environment in which terrestrial organisms have evolved and adapted.
> >
> > Sure, there are other ways to go, but I myself have a long evolutionary
> > history and I accept it. I'm not adapted to swamps or cities, flying in
> > the sky or life in the deep blue sea.
> >
> > I want to remain close to my source and artifical life support systems
> > are of little interest to me, personally.  But to each, his (or her) own.
> >
> > BTW, Coahuayana, Michoacan was a swamp before drainage canals were dug
> > and now it produces prodigious amounts of excellent tropical fruit .
> >
> > So Lawrence, I said what I meant and I meant what I said.
> >
> > I am a soil based critter myself and that's where MY food comes from.
> > Good luck with your water cress.
> >
> > Douglas
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