permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

The problem is, on the rez, there is just not that much control. Shit 
happens, fences go down, plants do not get mowed, and then there is a problem 
that i am just not interested in being the cause of. If I'm not there to 
fence, mow, etc (which I won't be), I'm not going to plant it. I'm aware of 
the value of the trees, it is a matter of whether they will survive and what 
impact they might have on the environment in that particular location....


________________________________
 From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Food forest project at Pine Ridge -assistance
 
On 1/26/2012 8:59 AM, Cory Brennan wrote:

> need to research some of the below that i haven't worked with re:
> toxicity to livestock and invasiveness. I know the Eleangus have been
> a problem with invasiveness in some plains areas. Black Locust is
> highly toxic to horses, and would probably spread here, so even
> though it is an incredible permaculture plant and would have many
> uses, I am hesitant to put it into the systems - we have substituted
> honey locust which is fodder and which livestock love.  I'm working
> with the Extension Service and others to ensure I don't bring in
> anything invasive or that would be a problem for horses, cows or
> buffalo.

Fence the horses out and plant what you want.

> A general question for the list: I've been researching honey locust
> and have found contrary information regarding its nitrogen fixing
> abilities and how fast it rots. I love black locust for building
> because it rots so slowly. Some say honey locust rots slowly too -
> not as slowly as black locust. So, how slowly does it rot? We love
> the fact that we could coppice or pollard to get fence posts, for
> instance, and the tree grows back. There is some scientific evidence
> that honey locust fixes nitrogen even though it doesn't have the
> nodules. I haven't completed the research cycle yet, and wondering
> what anybody else has found out about this wonderful tree?

Walnut lumber is probably as rot resistant as black locust. I do not 
know times to harvest for useful lumber or posts compared to black 
locust. Black walnuts are a valuable cash crop (black walnut cake is 
traditional and unique in flavor).

> What zone are you working in? Do you have a paulownia that will
> survive in Zone 4? The ones we researched all said Zone 5, and we are
> far enough into Zone 4 that we hesitate, but are very interested in
> this tree as a lumber crop in silvoculture.  I worked with this tree
> in Los Angeles and what an awesome canopy tree for a food forest!

Paulownia wood is another high value cash crop. It can be exported to 
Japan where is prized for making tool boxes; it is lightweight and 
fairly strong. It is such a valued crop that Paulownia poaching is a 
problem  in some areas.

> Don't know how it does in a temperate climate tho, especially a harsh
> one.
>
> The Flathead reservation looks beautiful, at least in pictures. Wow,
> actual forests. :-))
>
> We know that honey locust, cottonwood and cedar do great in the
> climate. Eleangus does too which is why it's invasive.  Cottonwood is
> a sacred tree used in Sundance and serves so many functions well, so
> that is an important one for the Lakota. I will interview those
> involved to see which of the below they would have most interest in,
> and can I get back to you once I do that?

Eleagnus umbellata is a very important, very high quality food plant. 
Though potentially invasive it can be controlled by mowing or manually 
with hand tools. It is worth having it in orchards because of its value
as food and medicine (preventive). There have been good discussion 
threads on this plant in the nafex and permaculture lists fairly 
recently. You can find this in the archives:

Type any of these search commands into your browser's Google search box:
(not into the browser URL location bar)
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex autumn olive
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex eleagnus umbellata
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture autumn olive
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture eleagnus umbellata

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [permaculture] Fukuoka and trees
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:12:46 -0700
From: frances and/or david <fdnokes@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>

Just reflecting a bit more on the Paul Wheaton interview with Larry
Korn, reflecting on a historic visit with Fukuoka.
The bit about tree pruning was really interesting, and I would love to
hear more on this topic. Perhaps some others who listened (or not) have
more to pitch in on this topic.   Basically, Fukuoka as a devotee of
nature, felt that pruning was unnatural and controlling, but that once
it was started (usually at the nursery), there was no turning back. A
natural tree will develop in a suitable pattern, often a whorl.
Fukuoka, bless him, did not mind getting up into a tree on a ladder,
and, if he couldn't reach every last apple, saw no harm done in leaving
them for the wildlife that could access them.  What a different world
this would be if more people thought like Fukuoka!  The mere fact that
he spent his time in observation of nature would create a whole
different ecosphere. I was interested in this comment about pruning.
Also interesting was his preference for growing fruit trees from seed.
Yes, some of them will bear fruit you can eat and others will bear fruit
that others will eat... (We clear off an apple tree every year, and
enjoy the apples in all kinds of ways, mostly juicing, blending, and
eating out of hand -- the owners of the tree see them as 'cooking
apples') And, if I'm not mistaken (but would welcome some
clarification), apparently, some of the apple seed grown trees will just
not bear any fruit at all?  At any rate, I am seeing that as part of a
larger parcel of land, maybe even as part of a windbreak scheme?, apple
trees from seed could be very beautiful. Anyone have anything to add on
this topic of trees -- the natural way... ? This takes us back in time,
and to a less demanding way of life, for ourselves and for the plants, too.
Frances