permaculture

["Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>]

for those interested in this subject..

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [soilandhealth] Re: Cuba.... was potting soil/organic 
fertilizers
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 22:39:47 -0400
From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: soilandhealth@yahoogroups.com
To: soilandhealth@yahoogroups.com

On 8/16/2011 4:24 AM, m_astera wrote:
> Joseph-
>
> There is a myth, a very popular one, that all one needs is "more organic
> matter" to turn any piece of ground into a fertile paradise.
>
> Among others promoting the myth are the Rodale organic crowd,
> Biodynamics, Permaculture, Fukuoka's fans, and Ingham's SoilFoodWeb. The
> soilfoodweb organization has probably taken it to its furthest extreme,

http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm
"The positively charged nutrients that we are mainly concerned with here
are Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium and Sodium.  These are all alkaline
cations, also called basic cations or bases.  Both types of cations may
be adsorbed onto either a clay particle or soil organic matter (SOM).
All of the nutrients in the soil need to be held there somehow, or they
will just wash away when you water the garden or get a good rainstorm.
Clay particles almost always have a negative (-) charge, so they attract
and hold positively (+) charged nutrients and non-nutrients.  Soil
organic matter (SOM) has both positive and negative charges, so it can
hold on to both cations and anions."

- So, isn't this why SOM is so important apart from its ability to
reduce or eliminate compaction in soils prone to being in that
condition, especially during drought (more on that later about an
observation of my garden soil this summer) plus increasing water
retention and favorable habitat for soil dwelling creatures?

Also, regarding adsorption, cations and anions and such:

http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm
"The word "ion" simply means a charged particle; a positive charge is
attracted to a negative charge and vice-versa."

If an ion is a charged particle, then what is a charged particle?
Is it a "free" atom of an element? or is it (just guessing here)
"free", charged (+ or -) orbitals within the nucleus of an atom of an
element (really getting wild here with speculation, need to Google these
terms and read wikipedia), i.e. electron or proton?

I would be interested in your comments on this, Michael. I am finally
beginning to grasp soil chemistry concepts now thanks to your postws and
website. Good work.

> and that's probably where you got the idea that all minerals are to be
> found anywhere if you only go deep enough. I remember reading on their

Depends on the types of soil on site, i.e. the finely pulverized rock
particles that make up the on-site "soil, an aggregate of particles from
many types of rock. Also minerals that may have migrated to the site
through flooding or washing, erosion of silt from elsewhere may have
percolated deeply into the soil, to be mined by soil dwelling fungi
depositing it on the roots of said trees.

> web site that plants, especially trees, could send their roots hundreds
> of feet deep and bring up minerals. Is this true? Perhaps some places.
> Mostly tree roots, even from the largest trees, only go as deep as
> bedrock. If there is no Selenium, Copper, or Zinc in that bedrock, they
> aren't going to bring it up. It also seems unlikely that someone with
> poor soil is going to plant a forest and wait around a few centuries for
> the trees to grow up and bring the minerals.
>
> Probably the main reason people like this "organic matter fixes all"
> idea so much is because it's practically brainless. Despite how esoteric
> and complicated some might like to pretend it is, how hard is it to
> learn how to haul leaves, manure, etc, pile it up, and let it rot?

People serious about this subject and/or needing to work their land
sensibly and creatively are not brainless or lazy. Usuaally they seek
the best solution because their very survival depends on it....

10-4 Daniel :-)

> It's one thing to grow a few fruits and vegies and rely on that for 1/3
> of your diet or less; a whole different thing to provide all of the
> nutrients needed to raise healthy and reproducing children and animals.

It is not a simple either or situation most of the time. They grow and
eat a balance of plant and animal based foods depending on the needs of
their bodies. I find myself settling into a pure vegetarian diet with no
loss of strength or stamina and can look forward to other health
benefits from this diet. Its what works.

More later; this is a good post (the original one) to build a thread on.

Encouragement for a recovery and improved health for Hugo Chavez and
thanks to the excellent Cuban health system.

As for Cuba, keep exploitative forein business interests OUT of Cuba;
Cuba for Cubans and their friends.