permaculture

[Adrienne Rayna <rocknrayna@yahoo.com>]

Just a Quick question:  How accurate is the 'Smell Test;'  that is when you 
pick 
up some soil in your hand and it smells 

alive and delicious?  How accurate is the 'Feel Test', that is when you pick 
up 
the humus and it crumbles lovely in your hands?
How accurate the 'See Test', that is when you turn over some dirt and worms, 
and 
bugs of all sorts seem to really be enjoying themselves in it.  After reading 
these posts I think I may return to my senses, as it sounds like soil testing 
may be fairly unreliable.  Perhaps there are some things you can actually 
know 
from tests that arehelpful?  Like Toxins undetectable by our senses?  


I would like to know, if I 'adopt' some corn field that has been treated with 
chemicals ....probably round up for many many years, what does it take to 
restore it to safety and health ?  Did I hear that soil organisms could be 
Genetically contaminated?
Did I understand correctly that GE uses cancer to get genes to cross species? 
 
... "Very Scary"  I hope that's not true.  Eeeechs.  Anyone know if this is 
so, 
or where I can learn more?

I am really enjoying these discussions and I'm organizing and saving many of 
these discussions in 'emails' to myself.  Thanks, all. 


I'm hoping to start a sort of 'commons' farm,  A farm / campus that is shared 
by 
the surrounding community, just as a community center or park is.  I may soon 
have a place to begin to actually try out some permaculture / Shumei / 
natural 
gardening ideas....      These conversations and links are really helpful.

Adrienne






________________________________
From: "permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org" 
<permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Wed, December 29, 2010 12:39:22 AM
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 95, Issue 43

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Question for Elaine: Fwd:    Re: Fwd:
      Re: [SANET-MG] Soil minerals and nutrition (David Muhl)
   2. Re: Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Question for Elaine: Fwd: Re: Fwd:
      Re: [SANET-MG] Soil minerals and nutrition (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   3. Re: Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Question for Elaine: Fwd:Re:    Fwd: Re:
      [SANET-MG] Soil minerals and nutrition (sals3)
   4. Re: Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Question for Elaine: Fwd:Re: Fwd: Re:
      [SANET-MG] Soil minerals and nutrition (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   5. Fwd: [SANET-MG] soil testing and biological    availability of
      nutrients (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   6. Re: skeeter's herb storage (wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk)
   7. Soil Minerals Home: organic garden soil minerals, trace
      minerals, fertilizers and soil testing for gardens, landscapes,
      and sustainable agriculture (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   8. Re: skeeter's herb storage (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   9. Re: skeeter's herb storage (wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk)
  10. Re: skeeter's herb storage (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 10:54:27 -0800 (PST)
From: David Muhl <dmuhl65@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Question for Elaine:
    Fwd:    Re: Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Soil minerals and nutrition
Message-ID: <511148.87679.qm@web37607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Excellent info...thank you. 

So it appears (as was discussed on this list in past threads) that:

a) there are myriad tests available
b) not all labs are using the same testing methods, even if the client were 
to 
ask the same questions about his/her soils.
c) there are many different variables (mineral content, organic matter, water 
quality and quantity, microorganisms, fungus, etc.)
d) how these variables (in their various quantities) interact with each other 
will determine what is available to the plants that occupy a given location 
(or 
will).
e) Some nutrients will be readily available, while others are slowly released 
(over various time periods).

I'm sure this list could go on for awhile, so I'll finish with the fact that 
each biological life form has it's own range of nutrients that is 
required/desired for optimal health, and that it might indeed take a 
"five-year 
PH.D. dissertation in soil chemistry and biochemistry" to piece together the 
absolute best combination of everything above, even for a small assortment of 
plantings (let alone an extended laundry list of plant materials that a 
permaculturist, organic market farmer, or a landscaper working with 
ornamentals 
might be working with).

Up until recently, I've been working with mostly ornamentals, and sometimes 
just 
natives for restoration work.  When I have soils tests done, the forms will 
ask 
me what I intent to plant, and based on this information (combined with the 
results from the testing), I will be given recommendations for specific 
amendments to be added (in various quantities) as part of my soil prep.  


Now, most of the labs I've used are those found at land grant universities 
that 
receive a good deal of their funding through large industrial agriculture 
corporations, and, suffice it to say, the recommendations virtually always 
suggest adding some cocktail of petrochemical fertilizers, much in the same 
way 
that doctors practicing western medicine treat symptoms of disease via "Big 
Pharma" rather than work towards creating a healthy body).  I could go deeper 
into this topic (as could most on a permaculture listserve), but my goal 
(starting with my original post) was to see how good of a soil I might be 
able 
to create for a specific site without the petrochemical amendments and 
herbicides.  


Elaine wrote about a thriving soil food web being able to make certain 
required 
nutrients available for plant uptake.  I felt if I could get at least a rough 
idea of my existing soil makeup, and maybe some idea of what the various 
living 
elements found in soil can do for me, then by reviewing both a standard soils 
test and a bio-assay, I could have a reasonable degree of confidence that I 
could make a few minor additions to my soil and have reasonably good success 
with the outcome.  Yes, each plant has it's own "ideal" conditions, and 
industrial mono-cropping farmers want a very specific "best recommendation" 
for 
that plant.  However, it's important to note that plants to not require the 
perfect set of conditions to thrive, but do well in a range of conditions (as 
might be illustrated by a bell curve).  Given the right project, I might 
(most 
probably would) wish to have a number of polyculture guilds present.  I 
should 
be able to (with the appropriate
level of plant knowledge) do one or two soil amendment strategies across the 
site that would benefit most all of the plants I choose, which might include 
the 
addition of various bio-amendments should they be absent or insufficient in 
number.  Sure, a few plants might not do well, but that's only a few.  It's 
not 
like I have the same level of risk that a large monocrop farming operation 
has 
if you don't "nail it" with the absolute best conditions on the first try.

So hopefully this conversation moves beyond just a discussion of various 
testing 
strategies and why our hands are tied behind our backs and why we are 
helpless 
to solve some complex riddle even with our PhD's in hand.  Let's move to 
"thinking outside the box" to whatever extent possible.  Hopefully Elaine can 
respond as well, or others whose expertise covers the soil food web in 
addition 
to other aspects of soil science.  For that matter, let's expand this to 
include 
other questions/comments people might have.  


Cheers,

David Muhl

--- On Tue, 12/28/10, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> 
wrote:

> From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: [permaculture] Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Question for Elaine: Fwd: Re: 
> Fwd: 
>Re: [SANET-MG] Soil minerals and nutrition
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Tuesday, December 28, 2010, 5:00 AM
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Question for Elaine: Fwd: Re:
> [permaculture] Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Soil minerals and
> nutrition
> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 22:50:55 +1100
> From: James Sprunt <james.sprunt@GMAIL.COM>
> To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
> 
> A common test for soluble nutrients is a Reams type test
> using Morgan
> extracts. These use a relatively weak extractant and Reams
> wanted farmers to
> be able to conduct this test on a very regular basis.
> 
> Then there are tests for exchangeable cations(Ca, Mg, K,
> Na, H, NH4+,Al) i.e
> those adsorbed to colloids.
> 
> There are also a number of tests for the anions: P, S, N
> which some
> stronger, some weaker (some less available, some more
> available) again based
> on the ability of the extractant to extract.
> 
> There are tests for trace elements, some of which are
> cations, some anions.
> 
> Then there are the totals (largest pool), strongest
> extractant.
> 
> Note that very few labs do the exactly the same test and
> will thus have
> different results.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
> [mailto:SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU]
> On Behalf Of Lawrence F. London, Jr.
> Sent: Tuesday, 28 December 2010 5:19 PM
> To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
> Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Question for Elaine: Fwd: Re:
> [permaculture] Fwd:
> Re: [SANET-MG] Soil minerals and nutrition
> 
> On 12/27/2010 8:42 PM, James Kotcon wrote:
> > Soil tests from most soil test labs are based on the
> "extractable"
> nutrients, and the extracting solution is usually
> > a fairly weak one so that what is "extracted" mimics
> what is available to
> plant roots during the current growing
> > season.? One can use stronger extracting
> solutions to get a larger
> proportion of the nutrient pool.? In fact, with a
> > mass spectrometer, you can count pretty much every
> molecule and atom (for
> a pretty high price).? The concern is that,
> > although those elements locked inside a grain of sand
> would eventually
> become "available" as the sand is weathered to
> > silt and clay, that may require hundreds of years in
> the real world.? Thus
> that kind of laboratory measurement is not
> > a particularly useful number to tell us anything about
> what plants might
> extract during our lifetime. So while the
> > results would be quite accurate, they would not be
> particularly useful
> from a soil fertility standpoint.
> > 
> > The more rational approach might be to express the
> nutrients based on a
> stronger extracting solution, but then again,
> > the interpretation of those results would depend on
> the specific chemistry
> of the extracting solutions and the soil.
> > Add in the variability from point to point in the
> field, nutrient
> interactions that interfere with uptake, and
> > differences in nutrient requirements form one plant
> species to another,
> and the numbers you get might require a
> > five-year PH.D. dissertation in soil chemistry and
> biochemistry to fully
> understand.
> > 
> > While it is true that soils with adequate organic
> matter generally will
> have all the nutrients required for plant
> > growth (after all, the organic matter was originally
> plants), whether
> there is enough that becomes available in
> > adequate amounts, at the right time and in the right
> balance is a
> different question.? Knowing the "total" nutrient
> > pool does not answer that question any better than
> knowing the "available"
> pool.
> > 
> > Jim Kotcon
> 
> Thanks very much for your thoughtful reply. I have
> forwarded it back to the permaculture list for the original
> poster,
> and everyone else interested in this, to read. Maybe some
> will subscribe to sanet-mg to read more.
> 
> This surely answers a lot of questions for me and clears up
> much confusion accumulated over the years.
> 
>  > The more rational approach might be to express the
> nutrients based on a stronger extracting solution, but then
> again,
>  > the interpretation of those results would depend on
> the specific
> chemistry of the extracting solutions and the soil.
> 
> Could you go into more explanation of this? Why wouldn't a
> weak extracting solution, mimicing plant actual uptake, not
> be the most desirable, and useful? In fact why not require
> both, the
> aggressive test to see what nutrients are in the
> soil that would not be detected by the weak extraction
> solution and that
> might become plant available at some future
> date and the less agressive test to have a more accurate
> picture of what
> nutrients one could expect to be available to
> plants in the short term?
> 
> Lawrence
> _______________________________________________
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> 


      


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:25:58 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Question for Elaine:
    Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Soil minerals and nutrition
Message-ID: <4D1A39C6.4030206@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 12/28/2010 1:54 PM, David Muhl wrote:
> Excellent info...thank you.

I learned a lot, cleared up a lot of mystery and the thread is still 
going though I haven't gotten a reply to this yet:

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Question for Elaine: Fwd: Re: [permaculture] 
Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Soil minerals and nutrition
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 08:31:58 -0500
From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@BELLSOUTH.NET>
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU

On 12/28/2010 6:50 AM, James Sprunt wrote:
> A common test for soluble nutrients is a Reams type test using Morgan
> extracts. These use a relatively weak extractant and Reams wanted 
farmers to
> be able to conduct this test on a very regular basis.
>
> Then there are tests for exchangeable cations(Ca, Mg, K, Na, H, 
NH4+,Al) i.e
> those adsorbed to colloids.
>
> There are also a number of tests for the anions: P, S, N which some
> stronger, some weaker (some less available, some more available) 
again based
> on the ability of the extractant to extract.
>
> There are tests for trace elements, some of which are cations, some 
anions.
>
> Then there are the totals (largest pool), strongest extractant.
>
> Note that very few labs do the exactly the same test and will thus have
> different results.

Maybe it would be expensive but for any and/or all nutrients selected
for testing in soil samples and with factors of nutrient interactions
limiting availability and site specific factors (if any) accounted for
somehow, is it feasable to do a range of extractions using weak to
strong extractants for each nutrient providing a clearer image of what
exists or doesn't exist and to what degree in multiple samples taken on
a farm. This would tell a farmer what nutrients are immediately
available for use at planting time and what could become available over
time. Maybe the test data could be plugged into a database or
spreadsheet and correlated with pH, soil moisture, SOM, humus (humate?)
levels, soil microbiology  and nutrient interactions. Something like
this, though imprecise, might still provide a clearer and long term
picture of field conditions and realistic expectations for crop
production than other types of testing procedures. Other information
that should be added to the db dataset through the use of a linked GIS
system would be a history of crops planted and harvested for each
defined site and the condition of each of those crops. This would also
be useful in planning succession schemes.



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:17:36 -0800
From: "sals3" <sals3@cox.net>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Question for Elaine:
    Fwd:Re:    Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Soil minerals and nutrition
Message-ID: <F87AB6943F3E4C439CAEDD2F42FF7546@sals2PC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

I would like to add my 2 cents the soil you test now is not the soil you 
will have real soon if you r making your own soil using permaculture.  . 
you may not get the same readings after a rain  or on a hot day or over here 
or over there . I would think  and after years there should be more fungus 
more forest etc do you think the test would be the same minerals .  .  IMHO
do you think the soil test under a banana "a grass "would give the same 
readings as under a 100  year tree  even though they are only feet apart  ? 
I don't know. I think a good soil test the best I have seen was go under a 
healthy tree and pull back the mulch and see if your making soil and how 
good it looks.  of course it looks better after a rain and different in hot 
weather. guess you have to look at the tree itself and every thing around it 
.   are they happy or stressed.  .



permacultureforum@gmail.com 



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 19:18:52 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Question for Elaine:
    Fwd:Re: Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Soil minerals and nutrition
Message-ID: <4D1A7E6C.9060601@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 12/28/2010 5:17 PM, sals3 wrote:
> I would like to add my 2 cents the soil you test now is not the soil you
> will have real soon if you r making your own soil using permaculture. .
> you may not get the same readings after a rain or on a hot day or over
> here or over there . I would think and after years there should be more
> fungus more forest etc do you think the test would be the same minerals
> . . IMHO
> do you think the soil test under a banana "a grass "would give the same
> readings as under a 100 year tree even though they are only feet apart ?
> I don't know. I think a good soil test the best I have seen was go under
> a healthy tree and pull back the mulch and see if your making soil and
> how good it looks. of course it looks better after a rain and different
> in hot weather. guess you have to look at the tree itself and every
> thing around it . are they happy or stressed. .

Great observation, Sal. It was those kind f thoughts that made me think 
that looking at soil test results in the context of conditions at the 
time the sample was taken and also in the context of results of a total 
soil microbiology assay, soil organic matter and variations according to 
depth and more. This is very interesting stuff. We should see what more 
we can come up with.


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 19:56:42 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [permaculture] Fwd: [SANET-MG] soil testing and biological
    availability of nutrients
Message-ID: <4D1A874A.1070007@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [SANET-MG] soil testing and biological availability of nutrients
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 18:55:49 -0500
From: Joel Gruver <jgruv@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU

Hello folks,

a few weeks ago I posted a temporary link to a presentation on soil
testing... here is a permanent link to a slightly updated version:

http://www.slideshare.net/jbgruver/soil-testing-6379411

the target audience for this presentation was undergrads in a Soil
Fertility class (mostly affiliated with large conventional grain farms
in IL) but I think the slides illustrate some important ideas that are
often misunderstood by agriculturalists of all persuasions.

One key misconception is that soil testing is intended to identify the
quantity of nutrients available or likely to be taken up by the next crop.

THIS IS NOT TRUE.

If a lab reports that a particular soil contains 50 lbs/acre Mehlich 3
extractable phosphorus, this is not a prediction that an acre of the
next crop will have access to 50 lbs of phosphorus.

The # 50 is an artifact of the Mehlich 3 extraction process that only
has meaning if field experiments have been conducted to determine how
particular crops respond to soils with 50  lbs/ac (or other amounts) of
Mehlich 3 extractable P.  See slides 33-36 in the presentation.

Some soil testing labs present lab results as extract concentrations
(typically as parts per million)... IMHO this is more appropriate
because results reported as extract concentrations are more clearly the
outcome of a particular extraction process.

Briefly shaking a dry pulverized soil in an extracting solution is NOT
comparable to what a root system does to acquire nutrients over the
course of a growing season. It doesn't matter if the extracting solution
has a pH of 2.5 (e.g., Mehlich 3), 1.5  (e.g., Mehlich 1), 4.8 (e.g.,
Morgan) or 7.0.

The purpose of extraction based soil testing is to provide a general
index of nutrient availability NOT to simulate real soil processes or
predict the actual quantity of nutrient(s) available during a growing
season.

that said, there are some examples of extracts designed to predict
longer term availability... the Bray P-2 extract is an example...
unfortunately calibration data for the Bray P-2 extract is limited.

********************************

I spent a little time this morning updating the SlideShare presentation
previously titled "Nutrient Dynamics".

http://www.slideshare.net/jbgruver/ecology-of-nutrients-6392745

I think the slides now more directly addresses the biological
availability of nutrients and the key differences between nutrient
stocks and flows.

Few if any labs that provide routine soil testing are set up to perform
total elemental analysis of soil (i.e., to measure the total nutrient
stocks in soils) but this type of analysis is available through some
research labs.

> From an agricultural management perspective, it is logical to focus
> our attention on promoting nutrient flows/transformations that are
> large enough and fast enough to support good crop yields.

Nutrient flow rates that are adequate to support the growth of lichen on
an outcrop of granite will not support the growth of crops.

Nutrient flows that are adequate to support the growth of productive
ecosystems with near complete recycling will not sustain agro-ecosystems
with high rates of harvesting.

~100 years ago Milton Whitney (chief of the USDA's Division of
Agricultural Soils) and Cyril Hopkins (Head of the Agronomy dept. at the
U of Illinois) engaged in a bitter battle around these issues.

Whitney believed that the fertility of the soils of the Midwest was not
really being depleted whereas Hopkins was adamant that cropping systems
with few nutrient inputs and little effort to recycle nutrients were
destroying the soils of the Midwest.

Whitney correctly perceived that the diminishing crop growth on Midwest
farms was primarily the result of inadequate nutrient flow rather than
inadequate total quantity of nutrients... but Hopkins' promotion of lime
and rock phosphate was much more practical and effective in improving
crop productivity.

An interesting and much more current discussion of related concepts is
contained in the article at the following link by Roland Bunch.
Nutrient Quantity or Nutrient Access? A New Understanding of How to
Maintain Soil Fertility in the Tropics
http://ppathw3.cals.cornell.edu/mba_project/moist/roland.pdf

Soil organisms have amazing capacity to mobilize (and immobilize)
nutrients but practical management strategies (e.g., Bunch's work in
Central America) that harness both biology and appropriate technology
(including inputs) are needed to improve and sustain agricultural
productivity.

Joel

Joel Gruver

School of Agriculture

Western Illinois University

jgruv@hotmail.com

> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 20:42:40 -0500 From: jkotcon@WVU.EDU Subject:
> [SANET-MG] Question for Elaine: Fwd: Re: [permaculture] Fwd: Re:
> [SANET-MG] Soil minerals and nutrition To:
> SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>
> Soil tests from most soil test labs are based on the "extractable"
> nutrients, and the extracting solution is usually a fairly weak one
> so that what is "extracted" mimics what is available to plant roots
> during the current growing season.  One can use stronger extracting
> solutions to get a larger proportion of the nutrient pool.  In fact,
> with a mass spectrometer, you can count pretty much every molecule
> and atom (for a pretty high price).  The concern is that, although
> those elements locked inside a grain of sand would eventually become
> "available" as the sand is weathered to silt and clay, that may
> require hundreds of years in the real world.  Thus that kind of
> laboratory measurement is not a particularly useful number to tell us
> anything about what plants might extract during our lifetime. So
> while the results would be quite accurate, they would not be
> particularly useful from a soil fertility standpoint.
>
> The more rational approach might be to express the nutrients based on
> a stronger extracting solution, but then again, the interpretation of
> those results would depend on the specific chemistry of the
> extracting solutions and the soil.  Add in the variability from point
> to point in the field, nutrient interactions that interfere with
> uptake, and differences in nutrient requirements form one plant
> species to another, and the numbers you get might require a five-year
> PH.D. dissertation in soil chemistry and biochemistry to fully
> understand.
>
> While it is true that soils with adequate organic matter generally
> will have all the nutrients required for plant growth (after all, the
> organic matter was originally plants), whether there is enough that
> becomes available in adequate amounts, at the right time and in the
> right balance is a different question.  Knowing the "total" nutrient
> pool does not answer that question any better than knowing the
> "available" pool.
>
> Jim Kotcon



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 03:34:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: "wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk" <wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] skeeter's herb storage
Message-ID: <962150.99986.qm@web25407.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Thanks for another excellent clip.

Unfortunatley I have to head back behind the great firewall next week and I 
will 
be blocked from watching anymore Youtube stuff for quite a while.

Any chance of creating a permies compilation and posting it at another source?

I know a few private torrent trackers that would be very pleased with such a 
video.
Obviously let me know if I can do anything to help.

Chris

--- On Wed, 12/29/10, paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:

> From: paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] skeeter's herb storage
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Wednesday, December 29, 2010, 1:45 AM
> Hot off the press!
> 
> This is Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski showing off his shed
> packed to the
> ceiling with herbs and tinctures.? Hundreds of
> thousands of cups of
> tea and bottles of tincture.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/paulwheaton12#p/u/0/Q47SiCupPqg
> 
> Please forward to folks that might be interested in this
> sort of thing.
> 
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
> here:
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> 


      


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 22:38:22 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>,    Market Farming
    <marketfarming@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [permaculture] Soil Minerals Home: organic garden soil
    minerals, trace minerals, fertilizers and soil testing for gardens,
    landscapes, and sustainable agriculture
Message-ID: <4D1AAD2E.60209@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed


Soil Minerals Home: organic garden soil minerals, trace minerals, 
fertilizers and soil testing for gardens, landscapes, and sustainable 
agriculture
http://soilminerals.com/index.htm


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 22:55:54 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] skeeter's herb storage
Message-ID: <4D1AB14A.4060901@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 12/28/2010 10:34 PM, wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Thanks for another excellent clip.
>
> Unfortunatley I have to head back behind the great firewall next week
> and I will be blocked from watching anymore Youtube stuff for quite a
> while.
>
> Any chance of creating a permies compilation and posting it at
> another source?
>
> I know a few private torrent trackers that would be very pleased with
> such a video. Obviously let me know if I can do anything to help.
>
> Chris

Chris:

Could you explain what torrents are and how we can get set up to access 
this resource (w/o viruses & free).

Tnx,

LL


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 05:11:01 +0000 (GMT)
From: "wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk" <wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] skeeter's herb storage
Message-ID: <857874.42002.qm@web25401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- On Wed, 12/29/10, Lawrence F. London, Jr. > Chris:
> 
> Could you explain what torrents are and how we can get set
> up to access 
> this resource (w/o viruses & free).
> 
> Tnx,
> 
> LL

OK, here is a quick intro on torrents.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-torrents.htm

Here is the software that I use for downloading.

http://www.utorrent.com/

And here is the software that i use for searching public torrent trackers.

http://convivea.com/product.php?id=2

There are also plenty of private trackers.  These are usually much faster and 
have a lot more unusual stuff but they require that you keep a ratio ie you 
share as much as you download.  Most of them require invites.

For permaculture stuff I like the following.

www.thebox.bz
A tracker for British TV but with lots of permaculture stuff too.
Documentaries such as A Farm For the Future is over here.

www.theempire.bz
An Australian TV Tracker but also with a fair bit of gardening shows, 
including 
Geoff Lawtons stuff

http://thegeeks.bz/
A tracker of educational material, book vids and MP3 lectures.
Lots of good obscure stuff here.

I have a few invites but can probably get some more for folks who are 
interested.

Hope that this helps.
Feel free to ask any questions.

Chris


      


------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:39:17 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] skeeter's herb storage
Message-ID: <4D1AC985.403@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 12/29/2010 12:11 AM, wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> OK, here is a quick intro on torrents.
>
> http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-torrents.htm

Thanks. I can take it from there. Great intro.

LL


------------------------------

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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 95, Issue 43
********************************************



      
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [SANET-MG] Soil solution concentrations of phosphorus
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 08:38:12 -0500
From: Joel Gruver <jgruv@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU

Hello Elaine,

you wrote:

"You don't need 450 ppm phosphorus in the soil to grow a plant. In fact, 
to make certain nutrient leaching will not occur, you probably don't 
want more than - well, what's a good number here? -- 1 or 2 ppm 
phosphate in soil solution at any instant in time.  Given the forest 
example, maintaining low but constantly replenished nutrients levels is 
what is desirable."

Phosphate levels in the soil solution are highly constrained by a wide 
variety of processes and 1 ppm phosphate is an extremely high solution 
concentration even for a agricultural soil with a history of P 
fertilizer or manure applications.

In natural ecosystems, soil solution concentrations of a few parts per 
billion phosphate are common.

Crop roots have no problem acquiring P from soil solutions far below 1 
ppm P as long as the soil's P supply is adequately buffered i.e., the 
solution P is resupplied at rates comparable to normal plant uptake rates.

you might find the article at the following link of interest:

Phosphorus Uptake by Plants: From Soil to Cell
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1539172/pdf/hw0447.pdf

you wrote:
"I'd like to see funding go to establishing what those low nutrient 
levels should be for different plants, given adequate biology to cycle 
nutrients all the time and maintain those constantly replenished levels 
of nutrients."

there has actually been lots of research on crop/root performance at low 
nutrient concentrations using solution culture... that is how we know 
that crop roots have no problem acquiring P from solutions much less 
concentrated than 1 ppm.

translating this type of mechanistic research into practical management 
systems is the challenge...



Roland Bunch's article on Nutrient Access vs. Quantity provides some 
good discussion... I have been meaning to search for English language 
articles/books by Ana Primavesi:
here is a link to her ecological soil manual for anyone that can read 
Portuguese:
http://books.google.com/books?id=DHo2zLdESkEC
Joel

BTW the recent Nature article at the following link on crop breeding for 
more efficient roots may be of interest:


http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100728/full/466552a.html



Joel Gruver
School of Agriculture
Western Illinois University
jgruv@hotmail.com