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  • From: "Vital Scherrer" <vital233@hotmail.com>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Similarities between the Jesus Movementatitsorigin and the
  • Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 22:37:49 +0000

Dieter,

LIQ (laughing in quiet=relief)! I was afraid that I really upset you.
But anyway, a honest thank you for your reply of (almost) whatever nature it may be - as it is kind of frustrating not to get any feedback - as well as for any irony and humour, as the contents of the postings in this mailing list are unfortunately, due to the incomprehensible (amount of) "bullshit" some people create, too often very grave and "chilling".
And sorry, if I didn't express myself clear enough.

"Romantic notions of utopian societies where the lamb
will sit alongside the lion are all very fine as far as they
go, yet things never work out quite like that, do they?"

Sure, but that was not exactly what I was writing about. I just think that pemaculture as a "method of human SETTLEMENT" may not necessarily resolve all the problems we face today, nor may it be the ultimate, most nature friendly and most enjoyable way of life. Of course for now this may seem the way to go (meaning the settlement part).

Also, the true utopian society is what we have got now, if one thinks of it in the long-run (Utopia meaning an unrealistic ideal society that is impossible to realize), if its consequences are thought to the end: One that is based on an economy which depends on unlimited growth on a limited planet. But for the readers of this mailing list there is no need to say more.

"Don't you think that the founders of socialism didn't have
the highest ideals and (at least in their opinion) the best
way of achieving paradise on Earth? They certainly didn't
intended it all to culminate in Stalin's Gulag or to end
in the massive waste of state planned socialism."

I certainly hope so, at least its authors! But again, that was not what I refered to. I meant an improved and sophisticated "hunter and gatherer" lifestyle, which actually may be more of a (semi-?) nomadic "food-jungle caretaker and gatherer" culture.

"It is the prerogative of youth to live out an idealistic élan,
yet reason is needed to keep it all from degenerating into
chaos and destruction, of which there are too many
examples in history for me to list here."

Now you are giving me rather little credit. - I hope you don't mind a more personal question: Are you by any chance a relative of a famous person of German history? Not that it would necessarily explain anything. This question just popped up somehow. Please excuse my curiosity.
Okay, let me call my intention by its name: What I was going on about was a stable and balanced way of life which is truly and genuinely based and rooted on natures principles. - This might fit better into the "permaculture and politics" thread. - Then again with a lifestyle that is based on natures principles, politics may be discarded, except for communal, local self governance. An ethnologist who knows about the commonalities of governance of tribes who are still living as nomadic hunters and gatherers, might be able to give some quiet interesting insights.

Or we might want to learn something from our closest relatives, the Bonobos, which "govern" their social conflicts with sex. Though the sex drive of our female population is probably too fluctuating for this to work. But it surely could mean a substantial enrichment, if we just could feel comfortable with it, this might be worth a shot or more :-).

"You want to give every unemployed a piece of land?
Get real! I live in a region that used to be home to a great
number of small farmers. There is hardly anybody left."

That's due mainly to the E.C. agriculture policy, which financially favours industrial-size farms.
If you would ask for example the expropriated American Indians or the Australian Aborigines, whether they would rather have a sufficient amount of arable land or the payments, I believe they would pick the land. Certainly a respective expert psychologist would tell you that the land will also give them back their dignity and self-reliance.

Also, would anybody have thought it would be possible to expropriate all the landowners of the communist countries. Such things can be implemented, if there is enough support or force backing it up.
When the time is right and the people are ready for it, and maybe most importantly, when they believe in it, believe that it can and must be changed, permaculture principles can become part of the legislations within days. I'm "afraid" that the more the earth gets devastated, the closer we get to this time. Let's just hope it won't be too late.

"...They all leave for the city as soon as they can get a buyer
for their land, many even before that. The young certainly
don't want to stay on the land. Much too hard to make a
living..."

...A living with materialistic affluence. When they get unemployment payments, they certainly don't want to work on the land. - I know about two women who spent their state payments on alcohol until they died as a result of that abuse.

Besides that, if the farmers would organize themselves properly, they would be the rich guys, as they, by being at the very source of the base of life, have this advantage and untapped power potential, with which they could rule the world. Instead they let themselves order about by subordinating themselves to a subsidy-system, which apparently does a lot of harm to the poorest in the third world too. All I can say is: Farmers stick together, grow crops which will make you independent and tell the folks in the fancy suits and their sympathizers to eat their money or pay a fair price for the products! - Meaning a price based on time and energy input of the farmers, paid in equal relation to the time and energy input of the rich man's work.

To all of those who are still with us: Sorry that I took such a hike off the thread.

In neighbourly friendship too,

Vital


----Original Message Follows----
From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Similarities between the Jesus Movementatitsorigin and the
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 04:00:34 -0800 (PST)

Vital,

Points well taken.

I said that "love thy ..." was a simple social precept
(meaning: not complex like the European Constitution for
example). I didn't say that is was easy to practice.

Romantic notions of utopian societies where the lamb
will sit alongside the lion are all very fine as far as they
go, yet things never work out quite like that, do they?

Don't you think that the founders of socialism didn't have
the highest ideals and (at least in their opinion) the best
way of achieving paradise on Earth? They certainly didn't
intended it all to culminate in Stalin's Gulag or to end
in the massive waste of state planned socialism.


It is the prerogative of youth to live out an idealistic élan,
yet reason is needed to keep it all from degenerating into
chaos and destruction, of which there are too many
examples in history for me to list here.

You want to give every unemployed a piece of land?
Get real! I live in a region that used to be home to a great
number of small farmers. There is hardly anybody left.
They all leave for the city as soon as they can get a buyer
for their land, many even before that. The young certainly
don't want to stay on the land. Much too hard to make a
living. I can live here because I have a second job which
allows me to survive even if there is a crop failure. And
since I spent my live in the major capitals of this World,
I do appreciate the remoteness and am willing to put up
with innumerable inconveniences. But I don't blame others
for seeking the comfort of the cities.

I didn't intend to misrepresent your lines, anyway not
more than necessary to get my point across ;-) And
I'm certainly not a hardliner of any description.

Sorry if I can’t resist the urge to use a little irony here
or there. I know I shouldn’t, since irony like humour
doesn’t travel easily across national or cultural boundaries.

In neighbourly love,

Dieter


Vital Scherrer <vital233@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dieter,

I agree with you that love is more than a fleeting "emotion" - it's my
failure that I didn't mention its possibly most important motivating quality
- though obviously and unfortunately too often it is just that too. But then
again, aren't all feelings more than just something transitory and fleeting
as well?

I don't agree with you though that to "Love thy neighbour" is simple. It is
simple to command it, but a whole different story to do it. Would we have
social conflicts if it would be simple?

Of course I didn't mean "sharing" in a sense of a politically centralistic
dictator-socialism, which was forced upon people. Just like capitalism, it
only works with understanding, if people don't feel forced and if the
majority support it. Not to mention that people without a piece of land, are
basically forced to serve the industries and other employers. It's just so
subtle that obviously most people are not aware of this fact.

>"To give everybody a piece of land to grow
> their own food on, sounds like a gigantic waste that could
> easily dwarf even the worst excesses of socialism and
> capitalism combined. Most would not and could not grow
> their own food."

Why could they not (learn to) grow their own food, with some help of a
suitable task force and plant material, instead of unemployment payments?
You are giving rather little credit to the unemployed. - It seems like you
are associating some rather awkward emotions with this topic.

...Nor did I mention any trampling 20th century tourists, which might, by
doing so, destroy the basis of life. In other words, I wrote about a kind of
transformation of the fertile lands into a food jungle - which is what
permaculturists do anyway, right? - where people could stroll, discover and
see more of this planet, whatever you would call it. The word "ravishing"
may not necessarily be a good choice.

But I admit this must sound a bit too far fetched - still - or like science
fiction, especially for settler- and planter hardliners.

I just hope you are the only one who misinterpreted my lines. If anybody
else didn't get the picture, I'll be glad to explain.

Vital


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