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permaculture - Re: [permaculture] entropy and PC yields - does permaculture defy the laws of physics?

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  • From: Paul Osmond <s9900761@pop3.unsw.edu.au>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] entropy and PC yields - does permaculture defy the laws of physics?
  • Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:56:33 +1100

Interesting thread!

Permaculture - and everything else we know about - indeed doesn't contradict the laws of physics.

However, under certain conditions entropy itself can generate order. The running down of "system 1", in energy terms, makes possible the emergence of growth and complexity in "system 2" which is coupled to "system 1". It's been described as negative entropy or "negentropy".

This property of emergence, or self-organisation of complex systems, is what enables individual organisms grow and develop, and ecosystems to flourish - in short, it is the engine of life, run in the final analysis on solar energy.

And it is exactly what permaculture design, by learning from natural systems, seeks to achieve. So it's not just the amount of the energy "diverted" but HOW it's diverted.

Cheers, Paul Osmond


Daniel.Donahoo@dhs.vic.gov.au wrote:

Antonio.


Does PC "infringe" the law of entropy? In which respect it is possible

to produce more energy than the one received in input?

As wonderful as permaculture is, it does not contradict the laws of
physics.

Your statement, "Still at each energy transaction, the law of entropy
states that part of the initial available energy goes lost forever. So even
if we cycle and cycle the same resource at each time part of its inherent
energy must have gone lost" is true.

It is not possible to produce more energy, because as you state energy is
required...however...it is possible to regain larger amounts of energy.

I'm sure others on the list could explain it better, but even though you
may spend a lot of energy pushing a rock to the top of a cliff. You have
created potential energy in that you can now drop the rock off the
cliff...energy is lost and some is gained, but as a whole it is lost.

Permaculture aims to capture as much of this energy gain as possible and
reduce the energy loss where possible.

The planet, theorectically, is always losing energy at at some point in the
distant future will grind to a halt...but that is a while off yet.

I'm sure others can explain this more succinctly, 1st year physics at uni
and stephen hawkings books are the basis for this response.

cheers

dan d





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