permaculture

[Kelley <amaranth@uninets.net>]

No, I'm not interested in planting it.  From the posts, it seems most well 
adapted to
western climes, anyway.  My thought on succession, however stems from one 
person's
indication that this thistle is a pioneer species which, in my training 
refers to a
species which sets the soil for more secondary species.  These secondary 
species,
however, most generally end up weeding out the pioneer species, either 
through further
alteration of soils, by shading or other means.  My thought was to what type 
of
secondary species could be planted to weed out this thistle, providing it had 
already
done its job of soil improvement.

Just a rambling thought, though, as truly the only thing that I "know" about 
this plant
has come from the recent posts.  We have our own thistles here which one has 
to be
careful of when walking barefoot.  Just the run-of-the-mill pink version, 
though, which
I will probably mow once they have bloomed but before they seed, as I think 
they're
quite lovely, but would prefer they not spread any more than they have.  They 
get to be
quite large as well and most are now past the point of hiding in the 
surrounding
grasses -- they're quite obvious and easier to avoid.

There is a lot of data on non-native weeds, which is why ecologists dislike 
them so
much.  Commom plantain, as well as many other common weeds, is an introduced 
species
from European ancestors as I understand it.  Personnally, I'm quite glad that 
it made
its way across the ocean as it's the best remedy I've found for the nasty 
black fly
bites.

There is probably a plant or other organism which does in fact control the 
star thistle
in its native lands rather well, but in past trials at bringing the 
"controller" over,
we have ended up with ever more problems as the "controller" usually goes out 
of
control.  I would agree with you that there is probably something that would 
keep its
growth in check that is somewhere near its present occupied habitat, it will 
just be a
trial and error process in finding it.  I would first look at what keeps it 
in check in
its homeland and then explore similar families found near its present site.  
Maybe its
not that simple, but then again, I think that's a very different approach to 
solving
this sort of problem than we have traditionally taken, i.e. herbicide control.

Take care,
Kelley

stephan leimroth wrote:

> Kelley!
>
> i'm not sure from your message if you were thinking of
> introducing star thistle to your site or if you
> already have it.
> if you don't already have it, Don't Plant Star
> Thistle!
> controlling it is a nightmare and eradication seems
> near impossible.  (plus, your neighbors will hate
> you.)
>
> i don't know the next plant in the succesional line;
> here in california, it just grows and grows and grows.
>  since attempts are made to control it, it never gets
> a chance to finish its work--however long that maybe.
>
> i wonder if there is information anywhere regarding
> the end result of any non-native 'weeds' allowed to
> run their course.  that would be a dream for me!
>
> my sometimes square, mainstream ecologist friend
> insists that, since star thistle is an introduced
> species to this system (and seems to create a mono
> culture if allowed), there is no benefit to it nor any
> succession.  my intuition and faith in the workings
> says this is wrong (not just for this 'weed').  i can
> only hope...
>
> stephan.
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