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Tom,
I think you nailed it with this observation:
"It simply learns and statistically assesses what has been said about things in its training texts. It is the epitome of what goes wrong with our use of symbols when they zip around increasingly oblivious to the actual things they are ostensibly talking about."
I tend to think that what the AI/ML tool (ChatGPT in this case) does is use a very large number of dyadic operations to achieve the illusion of a triad. It responds to a very complex signal (that can be decomposed into simpler signals, etc) via the same stimulus/response
mechanism that causes a dog to come when his/her name is called. That's not to say that the illusion isn't powerful. It is. And it (and others) will likely only get increasingly "lifelike" in the future, ushering in an age of hyperreal nightmares that we're
only beginning to appreciate the dimension of.
cheers,
Will
From: Percy-L <percy-l-bounces+welewis=wisc.edu AT lists.ibiblio.org> on behalf of Thomas Gollier <tgollier AT gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2023 11:17 AM
To: Henry P. Mills <wppdirector AT gmail.com>
Cc: Percy List <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Is Walker Percy a Southern writer? FOR TOM GOLLIER (OFF LIST)
Henry,
Thanks for forwarding my last message to the list. I was wondering what happened.
As to what Percy was "getting at" I look at it in the same vein as what the "movies are onto" before they screw it up. It is the everydayness of our knowledge, all of the generally accepted things we can say about things. And where hopefully there was
some direct acquaintance with the things themselves involved in our own knowledge as to what we can say about things, with ChatGPT there is virtually none. It simply learns and statistically assesses what has been said about things in its training texts. It
is the epitome of what goes wrong with our use of symbols when they zip around increasingly oblivious to the actual things they are ostensibly talking about.
All the objections I've been seeing to ChapGPT — can be wrong, no documentation, etc. — are things the program could easily be made to produce (if it were at all economically feasible). Train it on better texts, program in the sources, etc., and it would
be a match, if not better, for most, if not all, the purveyors of knowledge today. After all, we go to school primarily to learn how to talk about things. What Percy, at least for me, seems to be getting at is that all this learning what can be said about
something, these "vertical searches," are missing and obscuring something essential about why and how we use symbols in the first place.
In short, ChatGPT passes the Turing test with flying colors. So what's it missing? What exactly is peculiar to the human use of symbols? Can we even figure it out at this point?
Thanks,
Tom
Tom,
Please note I ask you a question directly in the PS of this post I have just now sent through the listserv. Could you clarify through a response to the community what you mean when you say, "I myself think ChatGPT is what Walker
Percy was trying to get at all along”? What was he “trying to get at”?
Best wishes and thanks for your post!
Henry
Begin forwarded message:
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Is Walker Percy a Southern writer? (according to
artificial intelligence ChatGPT)
Date: February 11, 2023 at 9:05:01 AM EST
Dear Percy-L Community:
This post is a follow-up to the question posed last week of "Is Walker Percy a Southern Writer?”. In particular, that post addressed the quality of one response provided by artificial intelligence as given
by the recently-released web-based AI tool ChatGPT.
To clarify and expand by adding a Percy quote, below are (1) what Percy said of himself in an interview from 1989 in response to the question at hand, and (2) the output of the ChatGPT AI system in response.
Questions for member response:
--Any comments about the AI-generated results, or the question in general?
--Would artificial intelligence be a topic Percy would address in his writings--novels or otherwise--if he were alive today? (I think of LiR's lapsometer, or TS’s heavy sodium.)
(Obviously, there is no right or wrong answer to these questions.)
Regards,
Henry Mills
PS-Thanks, Tom, for your response last week. Without our straying too far from the question of whether Percy is a "Southern writer" as answered by him or by AI, I wonder if you could
give explanation about why you state that “ChatGPT [artificial intelligence] is proof positive of what Walker Percy was trying to get at all
along?”.***
---------------
PERCY’S VS. AN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE RESPONSE
(1) Percy interview response*:
--Percy said in one interview about whether he considers himself a “Southern writer” the year before he died with:
"I don't like to be described as a Southern writer….The danger is, if you're described as a Southern writer,
you might be thought of as someone who writes about a picturesque local scene like Uncle Tom's Cabin, Gone
With the Wind, something like that....” (1989 interview from More
Conversations, 223).
(2) Artificial Intelligence response**:
--Submitted Query to ChatGPT:
"Give examples of why Walker Percy is a Southern writer and reasons why he is not. Which of his novels demonstrate he is a Southern writer?”
--Results from ChatGPT (Verbatim):
"Reasons why Walker Percy is considered a Southern writer:
- Place: Many of Percy's novels are set in the South, including Louisiana, which was his home state. He wrote about the culture, people, and landscapes of the Southern United States in a way that captures the essence of the region.
- Themes: Percy's works often explore themes that are specific to the South, such as the loss of tradition, the struggle to maintain a sense of identity, and the impact of modernity on the Southern way of life.
- Style: Percy's writing style has been described as Southern Gothic, and his use of dark, brooding imagery and existential themes is often associated with Southern literature.
Reasons why some may argue that Walker Percy is not a Southern writer:
- Universal appeal: While many of Percy's works are set in the South and explore Southern themes, they also deal with broader, universal issues such as the search for meaning and the human condition.
- Influence: Percy was heavily influenced by European philosophers such as Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Marcel, which may lead some to argue that his writing is not distinctively Southern.
Examples of Walker Percy's novels that demonstrate his Southern identity include:
- "The Moviegoer" - Set in New Orleans, this novel explores the life of a young man searching for meaning in the modern world.
- "The Last Gentleman" - This novel follows the journey of a man who is trying to find his place in the world, set against the backdrop of the South.
- "Love in the Ruins" - Set in a small Louisiana town, this novel explores themes of identity and the human condition in the context of a rapidly changing world.
Overall, while there may be arguments against labeling Percy as solely a Southern writer, the majority of literary critics and scholars consider him to be one of the most important Southern writers of the 20th century."
------------
SOURCES:
*"Walker Percy and Southern Literature,” online essay, Veronica Makowsky (2016)
Makowsky adds, "Percy frequently attempted to evade the danger of being labeled a 'Southern writer' by stressing
the more existentialist aspects of his work, but his fiction nonetheless remains very much a part of the Southern literary heritage….”
**ChatGPT
Query: "Give examples of why Walker Percy is a Southern writer and reasons why he is not. Which of his novels demonstrate he is a Southern writer?”
***Percy-L post, Tom Gollier (Feb. 4):
“Re: [percy-l] Is Walker Percy a Southern writer? (according to artificial intelligence ChatGPT)"
Henry,
I have to make a quick answer to question 3,
"What might Percy think about ChatGPT? For instance, its use of random language aggregation to form information? Any existential ramifications come to mind from this new form of AI?"
I myself think ChatGPT is proof positive of what Walker Percy was trying to get at all along. It proves we can coherently express all we think we know, what is statistically legitimate to say about anything, without any reference whatsoever to the existing
things themselves. ChapGPT is a smug "everydayness," a system of predicates that statistically covers pretty much the whole domain of our generally accepted uses of those predicates.
I really find the machine amazing, and an incredible place to begin, especially if you follow it up with questions, especially with the examples it gives, to dig into anything vague or ambiguous in its responses. Eventually, if this leads to a real contradiction,
it will simply restate a version of its starting point. Unlike us, the Kantian thing-in-itself is truly inaccessible to it. When the expected predicates fail us, we can still go out, kick the thing itself, and see what happens.
Anyway, I'm anxious to see the responses to your message.
Thanks,
Tom
Dear Percy-L,
For community enjoyment, this Percy-L post will address the age-old question of "Is Walker Percy a Southern writer?". But with a
new twist….
We will address the question by using the recently-made available artificial intelligence tool called “ChatGPT.”* As we use this new tool to provide an answer, members are invited to respond to this unique AI challenge. Was
ChatGPT successful? At the bottom of this email are several questions for further Percy-L discussion.
Enjoy!
Henry P. Mills
Director, The Walker Percy Project
----------
*More Details About ChatGPT (If Desired): Released online in November 2022, ChatGPT is being discussed in worldwide news for how the AI tool will soon
radically change the nature of research, writing, and information access on the Internet (via its “natural language processing” capabilities). See the ChatGPT website: <https://chat.openai.com/chat>.
For a readable overview about ChatGPT and its anticipated effects on society, see:
-------------------------
A. THE CHATGPT WALKER PERCY CHALLENGE — "IS WALKER PERCY A SOUTHERN WRITER?"
Submitted Query to ChatGPT:
"Give examples of why Walker Percy is a Southern writer and reasons why he is not. Which of his novels demonstrate he is a Southern writer?”
Results From ChatGPT (Verbatim):
"Reasons why Walker Percy is considered a Southern writer:
- Place: Many of Percy's novels are set in the South, including Louisiana, which was his home state. He wrote about the culture, people, and landscapes of the Southern United States in a way that captures the essence of the region.
- Themes: Percy's works often explore themes that are specific to the South, such as the loss of tradition, the struggle to maintain a sense of identity, and the impact of modernity on the Southern way of life.
- Style: Percy's writing style has been described as Southern Gothic, and his use of dark, brooding imagery and existential themes is often associated with Southern literature.
Reasons why some may argue that Walker Percy is not a Southern writer:
- Universal appeal: While many of Percy's works are set in the South and explore Southern themes, they also deal with broader, universal issues such as the search for meaning and the human condition.
- Influence: Percy was heavily influenced by European philosophers such as Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Marcel, which may lead some to argue that his writing is not distinctively Southern.
Examples of Walker Percy's novels that demonstrate his Southern identity include:
- "The Moviegoer" - Set in New Orleans, this novel explores the life of a young man searching for meaning in the modern world.
- "The Last Gentleman" - This novel follows the journey of a man who is trying to find his place in the world, set against the backdrop of the South.
- "Love in the Ruins" - Set in a small Louisiana town, this novel explores themes of identity and the human condition in the context of a rapidly changing world.
Overall, while there may be arguments against labeling Percy as solely a Southern writer, the majority of literary critics and scholars consider him to be one of the most important Southern writers of the 20th century."
-------------------------
B. QUESTIONS FOR PERCY-L DISCUSSION
(or any other related question)
1. Did ChatGPT provide a useful response to the question?
2. Does it provide sufficient information to back up its response? Bear in mind that all of its information is pulled randomly from the Internet.
3. What might Percy think about ChatGPT? For instance, its use of language aggregation to form random information? Any existential ramifications come to mind from this new form of AI?
4. Other related thoughts?
ChatGPT Query date: 2/4/2023
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