Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion of Walker Percy

[Charles Cowherd <charlescowherd AT hotmail.com>]

One note about the Pit mentioned in Greg's comments. Percy's Alma Mater,
UNC- Chapel Hill, indeed has a "Pit" that is located at the center of the
campus, near the Undergraduate library and the main academic buildings. My
wife is a graduate (although much later than Percy) of the School and
remarked that there is a saying that "If you stay at the Pit all day, you
will see every undergraduate currently enrolled at the school." My guess is
that the current version is toned down obviously from the area of dissent
that college campuses were known for during the writing of LITR. However, if
you go to the Pit at UNC, you will notice that all the surrounding buildings
have very limited windows, if at all. This was, of course, to discourage
bombs, etc. from being thrown in.
My guess is that Percy had a more contentious, physically deeper (UNC's pit
is only 6 or so feet deep) area in mind. 
~ Charles

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Today's Topics:

   1. LITR slow read (RHONDA MCDONNELL)
   2. LITR Slow Read (RHONDA MCDONNELL)
   3. Re: [External]  LITR slow read (Plemmons, Gregory)
   4. Re: LITR Slow Read (Henry Mills)
   5. Re: [External]  LITR slow read (Lauren Stacy Berdy)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 17:54:19 -0500
From: RHONDA MCDONNELL <rhonda_mcdonnell AT msn.com>
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [percy-l] LITR slow read
Message-ID: <BAY407-EAS1919E6E49866965B3E6EEB8E4F00 AT phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I'm looking forward to reading Greg's thoughts on the July 3rd section of
the novel this week.

In the mean time, no one has stepped forward for the July 4th section, so
why don't we all just post whatever random thoughts we might be having on
that section next week (the last week of July), without waiting for a
discussion leader's post?

Janet will wrap the novel up during the first full week of August.

Rhonda

Sent from my iPad

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 20:09:36 -0500
From: RHONDA MCDONNELL <rhonda_mcdonnell AT msn.com>
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read
Message-ID: <BAY407-EAS401440751A9C45EC1667435E4F10 AT phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

My mistake, Folks,

Patrick Lynch will be leading us off next week on the July 4th section.  His
initial message somehow was lost in the cosmos, but he was patient enough to
resend!

Rhonda

Sent from my iPad


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 03:56:20 +0000
From: "Plemmons, Gregory" <gregory.plemmons AT Vanderbilt.Edu>
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External]  LITR slow read
Message-ID:
        
<5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB046D6CE AT ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu>
        
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"

Hi, y'all,

Below are some thoughts I had on reading this section: 

Percy?s July Third section takes place almost exclusively within the
confines of the medical school. After a relatively brief and seemingly
uneventful section with Tom?s mother, action/machination returns, this time
on an stage, which is often a useful device itself (the play within a
play...)

I wondered about Percy?s choice of the Pit as the setting for this section.
What do others think? He seems to use it to great effect here. Such
amphitheaters are still fairly common in educational settings. How much of
what we consider education is entertainment, and vice versa? Does it matter?
Did everyone else find Mr. Ives to be quite a sympathetic character? The
public inquisition to which he is subjected here is quite humiliating, and
yet while Tom initially seems sympathetic, defending Mr. Ive?s defecation
and mutism, how much is done out of empathy, and self-recognition? How much
is done for spectacle? Tom is quite the critic of how gladiatorial the whole
guise of academic ?sportsmanship? pretends to be?and a brilliant
satirist--yet I feel finds himself completely swept up in the game, at
times. Is it humanly possible to remain objective and aware of the Game?
(and what would Percy think of Dr. Phil?)

At one point (p. 219) Tom says ?students are, if the truth be known, a bad
lot.? Does he believe this? In this section, the teachers act just as
juvenile?is there hope for future generations, or are we essentially trapped
in the human condition? I keep thinking of the young hippie couple with the
baby, on Honey Island?are they lost, or simply Hope? 

At one point, Tom has a fleeting moment of insight??the thing to do, it
occurs to me halfway down into the pit, is to concern myself with the
patient and what ails him, and forget the rest??which I think is a shining
moment of grace?but it seems to me that the challenge is how to forget the
rest?is it humanly possible, without the Gift? Without Grace? 

Although Percy has never been pegged as a traditional Southern writer, at
least in the Faulknerian sense of place, I?m always struck by his keen
awareness of the nuances of each region and his depiction of Mr. Ives
here?Mr. Ives seems curiously displaced, yet is most likely typical Everyman
for your average 1960?s middle-class Southerner. Ives, we?re told, is from
Tennessee, but lived for forty years in Hartford, Connecticut as an
insurance controller before his wife died (shades of Doris/Catherine?
self-identification?), and he desires to return home to Tennessee (aptly,
Lost Cove--Lost Self?). I?m sure whole essays have been written on this
choice, and What is Home, and what is Self (as someone pointed out earlier,
the Mall-ification of the South)?but it seemed at least worth a comment
here. Can he truly go home? Was he there to begin with? 

Mr. Ives: ?his monkey eyes snap??I couldn?t help but chuckle, and wonder
about Percy?s word choice here, having spent the weekend not too far from
Dayton, Tennessee?home of the Monkey Trial?(which is not too far from Lost
Cove, either?if any of you are wondering, which is a real, not fictional
place). Both of those locales are fairly close to Sewanee, where Percy's
family had property, I'm told, and where he spent some time. Nearly a
hundred years later, evolutionary biology is still being debated here (and
nationally) and I continue to be fascinated by the constant
intersection/conflict of science and faith. Interestingly, of note, here in
Tennessee a rebuttal ?play/musical? has been written to counterbalance
?Inherit The Wind?--entitled "Inherit The Truth" (and the Creation Museum up
the road in Kentucky is erecting a life-size replica of Noah?s Ark). At
least in my neck of the woods, it seems we need Percy?s voice more than
ever?the center cannot hold...

Greg





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________________________________________
From: Percy-L [percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] on behalf of RHONDA
MCDONNELL [rhonda_mcdonnell AT msn.com]
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 5:54 PM
To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
Subject: [External] [percy-l] LITR slow read

I'm looking forward to reading Greg's thoughts on the July 3rd section of
the novel this week.

In the mean time, no one has stepped forward for the July 4th section, so
why don't we all just post whatever random thoughts we might be having on
that section next week (the last week of July), without waiting for a
discussion leader's post?

Janet will wrap the novel up during the first full week of August.

Rhonda

Sent from my iPad
* Percy-L Discussion Archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/

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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 01:27:12 -0400
From: Henry Mills <wppdirector AT gmail.com>
To: Percy-L AT lists.ibiblio.org:Literary and Philosophical Discussion
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read
Message-ID: <53CDF630.1080707 AT gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Ah, yes, Rhonda, to me sometimes the randomness (seeming?) of the cosmos
will cast a message in a bottle back upon our shore.  All of us on the
collective shore of Percy-L thank you, and Patrick forthcoming, for
continuing to lead us into Percy's wonderful world of strange signposts in
their insights about the enduring human search for transcendent meaning
beyond the "vacuous self," the ghost in the machine that inhabits each.

For me, as another prominent role he occupies, Percy is a writer who
"speaks" to us in a novel form about an age when we more often than not are
told that only the empirical or the material matters as a reigning
worldview. Of course, one need only look as far as Percy's essay,
"Culture: The Antinomy of the Scientific Method," in Message in the Bottle
to see him initiate semiotic trouble there, with such poignant Percy-esque
questions as: "who is studying the scientists?".

I hope you will join me in a toast of bourbon to the good Doctor Percy and
the enjoyable read of LiTR we continue. Despite the sometimes political
differences that jaunt across our list, we all share in our community a
common appreciation for Percy's work.  I say let that appreciation continue,
even when proverbially the sand trap beckons.

Best,
Henry


On 7/21/14, 9:09 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote:
> My mistake, Folks,
>
> Patrick Lynch will be leading us off next week on the July 4th section.
His initial message somehow was lost in the cosmos, but he was patient
enough to resend!
>
> Rhonda
>
> Sent from my iPad
> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: 
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
>
> * Manage Your Membership: 
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
>
> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org
>
> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 12:16:55 -0400
From: Lauren Stacy Berdy <lauren.stacy.berdy AT gmail.com>
To: Percy-L AT lists.ibiblio.org:Literary and Philosophical Discussion
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External]  LITR slow read
Message-ID: <53CE8E77.1080506 AT gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

as usual our diagnostician/author was prescient in so many ways


the "pit" used as an educational setting?   yes, Thomas Eakins has a 
beautiful painting rendering of others ( students) looking onto the surgical
pit below. The pit is an excellent way to focus in and center ones attention
and discipline gaze. (There is quiet in the room no booing or cheering)

However Dr. Percy isn't using the pit like that..........no he tweaks it to
show us that our minds are no longer habituated to attention.
we are in the entertainment arena now. Huxley knew it in "Brave New World"
didn't he? Huxley knew we have an enormous appetite for distractions.
  "We will love what ruins us."he said.
Back to the pit.
Gregory uses the word "entertainment",
  I think that this is the whole point of students and pit. As we all know
and as The Doctor knew we are all dumbing down. Everything is fodder for
entertainment, " In Amusing ourselves to death" Neil Postman wrote that
Huxley got it right and I think the Doctor knew it and saw it and used it.
Show business dominates the culture and the serious business of learning has
been turned into entertainment. The fallacy for the ultimate truth of a
proposition does not depend on content but on who is speaking it and getting
the most cheers?

I adore cranky Mr. Ives. He is pissing ( pooping) on everyone from a high
height. He is on to them and Tom knows it.

I believe Tom is on to all of it too as it unfolds yet plays his part. 
Maybe he also likes being on stage? As I have written elsewhere that's a big
part of us and our problems.

students too now think that learning should be fun. Students are now passive
with no autonomy , sense of history or maturity. Their lessons aren't as
much fun as television.  maybe too the "pit" is a form of television like
"Kitchen stadium" ( Iron Chef)? they are the future and Percy was pointing
this out.

about Tom and "grace" what comes up for me is not "grace" but a coming back
into one ownself. After being away and drinking duck eggs and early times.
He gets back to the business of living and being and what unfolds is just
that. For me he got the gift of insight. Our very own precious human gift
that each of us owns.
(I also love that this thought arrives in his head as he is descending
.........)

I believe Mr. Ives can go fourth and live out his life in his lost cove or
what ever.......... He isn't distracted!!  (he might be displaced) The
others are distracted playing their roles.
He got out alive and  I would add God help us if we have to be granted life
according to a "Big brother."

I recommend Aldous Huxleys"Brave new World"
"people will love their oppression and the truth would be drowned in a sea
of irrelevance".

Thank you Gregory for all your additional news  about Tennessee. it seems to
have a lot of flavor.  I hear the BBQ is pretty good too but you don't hear
about it in the NYTS.
Good for them.

Thank you,













"

Lauren Stacy Berdy

On 7/21/2014 11:56 PM, Plemmons, Gregory wrote:
> Hi, y'all,
>
> Below are some thoughts I had on reading this section:
>
> Percy?s July Third section takes place almost exclusively within the 
> confines of the medical school. After a relatively brief and seemingly 
> uneventful section with Tom?s mother, action/machination returns, this 
> time on an stage, which is often a useful device itself (the play 
> within a play...)
>
> I wondered about Percy?s choice of the Pit as the setting for this 
> section. What do others think? He seems to use it to great effect 
> here. Such amphitheaters are still fairly common in educational 
> settings. How much of what we consider education is entertainment, and 
> vice versa? Does it matter? Did everyone else find Mr. Ives to be 
> quite a sympathetic character? The public inquisition to which he is 
> subjected here is quite humiliating, and yet while Tom initially seems 
> sympathetic, defending Mr. Ive?s defecation and mutism, how much is 
> done out of empathy, and self-recognition? How much is done for 
> spectacle? Tom is quite the critic of how gladiatorial the whole guise 
> of academic ?sportsmanship? pretends to be?and a brilliant 
> satirist--yet I feel finds himself completely swept up in the game, at 
> times. Is it humanly possible to remain objective and aware of the 
> Game? (and what would Percy think of Dr. Phil?)
>
> At one point (p. 219) Tom says ?students are, if the truth be known, a bad
lot.? Does he believe this? In this section, the teachers act just as
juvenile?is there hope for future generations, or are we essentially trapped
in the human condition? I keep thinking of the young hippie couple with the
baby, on Honey Island?are they lost, or simply Hope?
>
> At one point, Tom has a fleeting moment of insight??the thing to do, it
occurs to me halfway down into the pit, is to concern myself with the
patient and what ails him, and forget the rest??which I think is a shining
moment of grace?but it seems to me that the challenge is how to forget the
rest?is it humanly possible, without the Gift? Without Grace?
>
> Although Percy has never been pegged as a traditional Southern writer, at
least in the Faulknerian sense of place, I?m always struck by his keen
awareness of the nuances of each region and his depiction of Mr. Ives
here?Mr. Ives seems curiously displaced, yet is most likely typical Everyman
for your average 1960?s middle-class Southerner. Ives, we?re told, is from
Tennessee, but lived for forty years in Hartford, Connecticut as an
insurance controller before his wife died (shades of Doris/Catherine?
self-identification?), and he desires to return home to Tennessee (aptly,
Lost Cove--Lost Self?). I?m sure whole essays have been written on this
choice, and What is Home, and what is Self (as someone pointed out earlier,
the Mall-ification of the South)?but it seemed at least worth a comment
here. Can he truly go home? Was he there to begin with?
>
> Mr. Ives: ?his monkey eyes snap??I couldn?t help but chuckle, and wonder
about Percy?s word choice here, having spent the weekend not too far from
Dayton, Tennessee?home of the Monkey Trial?(which is not too far from Lost
Cove, either?if any of you are wondering, which is a real, not fictional
place). Both of those locales are fairly close to Sewanee, where Percy's
family had property, I'm told, and where he spent some time. Nearly a
hundred years later, evolutionary biology is still being debated here (and
nationally) and I continue to be fascinated by the constant
intersection/conflict of science and faith. Interestingly, of note, here in
Tennessee a rebuttal ?play/musical? has been written to counterbalance
?Inherit The Wind?--entitled "Inherit The Truth" (and the Creation Museum up
the road in Kentucky is erecting a life-size replica of Noah?s Ark). At
least in my neck of the woods, it seems we need Percy?s voice more than
ever?the center cannot hold...
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential
and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please
notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message
without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or
storing or copying the information on any medium.
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Percy-L [percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] on behalf of RHONDA 
> MCDONNELL [rhonda_mcdonnell AT msn.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 5:54 PM
> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> Subject: [External] [percy-l] LITR slow read
>
> I'm looking forward to reading Greg's thoughts on the July 3rd section of
the novel this week.
>
> In the mean time, no one has stepped forward for the July 4th section, so
why don't we all just post whatever random thoughts we might be having on
that section next week (the last week of July), without waiting for a
discussion leader's post?
>
> Janet will wrap the novel up during the first full week of August.
>
> Rhonda
>
> Sent from my iPad
> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: 
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
>
> * Manage Your Membership: 
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
>
> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org
>
> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: 
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
>
> * Manage Your Membership: 
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
>
> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org
>
> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy




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