Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion of Walker Percy

["Karey Perkins" <karey1 AT charter.net>]

Yes.  Great quote.  For Percy it was qualitative difference, not
quantitative.

However, the comment....:

"Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some evolutionary
breakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique creature, a creature
whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of both matter and spirit.
Language, for Percy, was a clue and ultimately a proof for the spiritual
order; and because it is rooted in the material world, I think he thought he
had something that even the rationalist-naturalist
intelligentsia would have to acknowledge."

.... is problematic.  Because it doesn't get rid of Cartesian dualism, which
was Percy's goal.  There are still two separate and distinct realms here,
matter and spirit.  He's trying to resolve that dilemma.  I think Percy was
a bit confused by it himself.  And that a material thing shows a spiritual
presence doesn't do that job of resolving the split between the two (though
it does do Percy's Christian apologist duties of showing the presence of
spiritual world).  

Middle creature is unclear on how we are middle - both matter and spirit
existing separate but equal within us (Cartesian dualism - and no word on
how they can interact) - or some amalgam of the two completely mixed and
losing the original identity of both. Or something else.  Percy himself
never resolved the split and it plagued him his whole life.

We also need to define "spiritual" - I do think animals have perception of a
spiritual world - don't laugh (ahem).  Dogs, cats, other animals have a
perception where they sense the presence of ghosts, etc., before humans.  So
the "spiritual realm" or "spiritual order" needs to be defined.  

Is it the characteristics of guilt, regret, redemption, joy, purpose,
meaning - human psychological characteristics animals don't have?  Humans
obviously have that, animals don't.  That's what Percy meant.

Is it the presence of a world of spirits - angels, demons, ghosts (or
whatever it is that exists in the non-material world).  Animals have that
sense, better than humans.  That doesn't seem to be what Percy was referring
to.

That's why I think we really need to take a step back and define our terms,
including "consciousness", "matter", "spirit", "middle"  - etc. etc.  I also
don't' think it'll get resolved here or any time soon by anyone.  It's far
more complex when examined it's all it's depth.

Karey





-----Original Message-----
From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Michael Larson
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 4:43 PM
To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [percy-l] Middle creature

This discussion was reminding me of something I couldn't quite place.
Then I remembered that passage from THE MESSAGE IN THE BOTTLE in which
Percy addresses the implications of language for distinguishing between
man and the animals. Then I remembered that I made a post about that
very thing last May. So I went back to the archives and found it, and
I've pasted it in (unedited) below. For whatever it's worth...

Mike Larson


*****

This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN THE BOTTLE (p.
158):

"An awareness of the nature of language must have the greatest possible
consequences for our minimal concept of man. For one thing it must
reveal the ordinary secular concept of man held in the West as not
merely inadequate but quite simply mistaken. I do not refer to the
Christian idea of man as a composite of body and soul, a belief which is
professed by some and given lip service by many but which can hardly be
said to be a working assumption of secular learning. We see man--when I
say we, I mean 95 per cent of those who attended American high schools
and universities--as the highest of the organisms: He stands erect, he
apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is far more complex than that
of the most advanced Cebus azarae. But the difference is quantitative,
not qualitative. Man is a higher organism, standing in direct continuity
with rocks, soil, fungi, protozoa, and mammals.

This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is unfortunate. I
say unfortunate because it means the shattering of the old dream of the
Enlightenment--that an objective-explanatory-causal science can discover
and set forth all the knowledge of which man is capable. The dream is
drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us that what man is
cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. The case is rather that man's
science is one of the things that man does, a mode of existence. Another
mode is speech. Man is not merely a higher organism responding to and
controlling his environment. He is, in Heidegger's words, that being in
the world whose calling it is to find a name for Being, to give
testimony to it, and to provide for it a clearing."


So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that the human capacity
for language is what separates us from the animals. The Christian
philosophers, to whose work he makes implicit reference here, would say
that the animals are of an entirely material (thus, dyadic) order and
that God and the angels are of an entirely spiritual (non-material)
order. But man is a middle creature, both material and spiritual (the
highest of the former and the lowest of the latter), and the triadic
nature of language is both a material clue for this reality and the
means by which this composite creature (man) has access to that which is
higher. Language itself is always material--whether written or
spoken--but it allows by way of signification for consciousness and
contemplation, which is of the spiritual order. And by a mere sleight of
words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to describe in grand
terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled centuries earlier, in the high Middle
Ages, long before "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was even born.

Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some evolutionary
breakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique creature, a
creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of both matter
and spirit. Language, for Percy, was a clue and ultimately a proof for
the spiritual order; and because it is rooted in the material world, I
think he thought he had something that even the rationalist-naturalist
intelligentsia would have to acknowledge.

*****



-----Original Message-----
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Chimp is a challenge (RHONDA MCDONNELL)
   2. Re: Chimp is a challenge (Karey Perkins)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 10:34:02 -0700
From: RHONDA MCDONNELL <rhonda_mcdonnell AT msn.com>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BAY116-W252272E2D265BD8BF4338CE4FC0 AT phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Another question: Can you know something (beyond survival impulses)
without having the language to articulate it?
--Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because
in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the
faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing."
Walker Percy

> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:50:08 -0400> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
From: armstron AT ohiou.edu> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge> >
Question: Do you know something without knowing that you know?> > Ken A>
> At 09:32 AM 3/25/2008, you wrote:> >List,> >> > I've always wondered
why, in this age old debate, more has not been made > > of the degree of
quantitative difference.> >> >Even without getting to the question of
qualitative difference, one must > >admit that the difference in
quantity is huge--orders of magnitude. Apes > >in the wild may have a
few dozen symbols. Human symbols number in the > >hundreds of thousands
at least.> >> >The extent of the difference in quantity suggests, though
certainly does > >not prove, a qualitative difference.> >> >I don't have
Langer in front of me, but I recall one thing she wrote in > >_New
Key_--> >"Between the clearest animal call of love or warning or anger,
and man's > >least, trivial word, there lies a whole day of Creati
 on--or in modern > >phrase, a whole chapter of evolution." (NY: Mentor
Books) p.83.> >> > Robert> >> >> >> >----- Original Message ----->
>From: Karey Perkins <karey1 AT charter.net>> >Date: Monday, March 24, 2008
6:48> >Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge> >To: "'Percy-L:
Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > ><percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>>
>> > > Rhonda,> > >> > >> > >> > > Of course, Nikki knows more about
what Walker said personally, but> > > in his> > > writings he always
maintained that chimps and other animals could> > > communicate
dyadically - but their sign language and other> > > communicationnever
rose above the "sign" level to symbol. He> > > seemed pretty adamant
about> > > that, even though it was not written in stone in the general>
> > field, as Nikki> > > says. Interestingly, Susanne Langer, his mentor
in symbol (of> > > sorts), felt> > > otherwise - that higher primates
were capable of rudimentary> > > symbol, and> > > gives examples in her
"Philoso
 phy in a New Key." For Walker it> > > seems to be> > > a qualitative
difference; for Langer, it was quantitative.> > >> > >> > >> > > Karey>
> >> > >> > >> > > _____> > >> > > From:
percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org> > >
[mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA> > >
MCDONNELLSent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:21 AM> > > To: Percy-L:
Literary and Philosophical Discussion> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp
is a challenge> > >> > >> > >> > > Nikki--> > >> > > Can you elaborate a
little on the debate you refer to? Was Walker> > > absolutein his
stance, or did he recognize that dyadic> > > communication exists
between> > > the "lower orders"? I'm wondering if it was triadic
communication> > > that was> > > the sticking point for him, and
therefore the true point of argument?> > >> > >> > >> > > --Rhonda> > >>
> > "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in> >
> spite of> > > great scientific and technological advances, man has not
the> > > 
 faintest idea> > > of who he is or what he is doing."> > >> > > Walker
Percy> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > _____> > >> > >> > > From:
Nikkibar AT aol.com> > > Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 23:43:24 -0400> > > To:
percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a
challenge> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Dear Marcus,> > >> > >> > >> > > You
bring up with painful nostalgia, a long running argument that> > > i
carried> > > on with Walker for a great many years. He always asserted
that> > > animals of> > > the "lower orders" were unable to communicate
-- not only with us> > > but with> > > one another, while I held to the
view that 1) he was probably> > > wrong and or> > > 2) that in any event
we could never be certain but 3) that it was> > > a measure> > > of our
hubris to deny the possibility. As times have gone forward> > > since
his> > > death, the empirical jury is still out in my view, but I think
my> > > positiongrows stronger day by day.> > >> > >> > >> > > Nikki> >
>> > >> > >
 > > >> > >> > >> > > _____> > >> > >> > > Create a Home Theater Like
the Pros. Watch> > > <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-> >
> stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001> the video on AOL Home.> >
>> > >> > >> > > _____> > >> > > Test your Star IQ Play now!> > >
<http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR>> >
>> > >> >--> >An archive of all list discussion is available at >
>https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/> >> >Visit the Walker Percy
Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy> > --> An archive of all list
discussion is available at https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/>
> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
_________________________________________________________________
Test your Star IQ
http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 14:09:49 -0400
From: "Karey Perkins" <karey1 AT charter.net>
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'"
        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <002d01c88ea3$6acc5a90$6401a8c0@Karey>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Good point.  Percy said language was necessary for consciousness.
That's
something I've been trying to decipher.  What exactly is he meaning by
consciousness? Are my cats not conscious?  They definitely feel.  Are
they
only conscious to the point of survival impulses, instinct, and the
emotions
related to the two?  I think if we interpret Percy's claim, it has got
to
mean that you can't know something beyond survival impulses unless you
have
language.  You can't be aware of the inevitable arrival of death, and so
can't experience "the denial of death" and the anxiety of death and the
need
for a causa sui (cf. Ernest Becker) - or other human emotions, such as
guilt
and regret and redemption.  (I'm quite certain my cats don't feel
guilt.)
Is that what he means by consciousness?

 

The huge evolutionary gap that Langer speaks of, that Robert points out,
might explain why Percy continually insisted on a qualitative difference
-
it really seems that way if the quantitative difference is so big.
Though
if it's really quantitative, there's a whole separate set of
implications
about who man is and how he differs from other creatures - that are
belied
if it's qualitative.

 

Karey

 

  _____  

From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 1:34 PM
To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge

 

Another question: Can you know something (beyond survival impulses)
without
having the language to articulate it?

--Rhonda 

"You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite
of
great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest
idea
of who he is or what he is doing."
  
                                    Walker Percy

 

  _____  

> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:50:08 -0400
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> From: armstron AT ohiou.edu
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> 
> Question: Do you know something without knowing that you know?
> 
> Ken A
> 
> At 09:32 AM 3/25/2008, you wrote:
> >List,
> >
> > I've always wondered why, in this age old debate, more has not been
made

> > of the degree of quantitative difference.
> >
> >Even without getting to the question of qualitative difference, one
must 
> >admit that the difference in quantity is huge--orders of magnitude.
Apes 
> >in the wild may have a few dozen symbols. Human symbols number in the

> >hundreds of thousands at least.
> >
> >The extent of the difference in quantity suggests, though certainly
does 
> >not prove, a qualitative difference.
> >
> >I don't have Langer in front of me, but I recall one thing she wrote
in 
> >_New Key_--
> >"Between the clearest animal call of love or warning or anger, and
man's 
> >least, trivial word, there lies a whole day of Creation--or in modern

> >phrase, a whole chapter of evolution." (NY: Mentor Books) p.83.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Karey Perkins <karey1 AT charter.net>
> >Date: Monday, March 24, 2008 6:48
> >Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> >To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" 
> ><percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> >
> > > Rhonda,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Of course, Nikki knows more about what Walker said personally, but
> > > in his
> > > writings he always maintained that chimps and other animals could
> > > communicate dyadically - but their sign language and other
> > > communicationnever rose above the "sign" level to symbol. He
> > > seemed pretty adamant about
> > > that, even though it was not written in stone in the general
> > > field, as Nikki
> > > says. Interestingly, Susanne Langer, his mentor in symbol (of
> > > sorts), felt
> > > otherwise - that higher primates were capable of rudimentary
> > > symbol, and
> > > gives examples in her "Philosophy in a New Key." For Walker it
> > > seems to be
> > > a qualitative difference; for Langer, it was quantitative.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Karey
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > [mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA
> > > MCDONNELLSent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:21 AM
> > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Nikki--
> > >
> > > Can you elaborate a little on the debate you refer to? Was Walker
> > > absolutein his stance, or did he recognize that dyadic
> > > communication exists between
> > > the "lower orders"? I'm wondering if it was triadic communication
> > > that was
> > > the sticking point for him, and therefore the true point of
argument?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --Rhonda
> > >
> > > "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in
> > > spite of
> > > great scientific and technological advances, man has not the
> > > faintest idea
> > > of who he is or what he is doing."
> > >
> > > Walker Percy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Nikkibar AT aol.com
> > > Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 23:43:24 -0400
> > > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Marcus,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You bring up with painful nostalgia, a long running argument that
> > > i carried
> > > on with Walker for a great many years. He always asserted that
> > > animals of
> > > the "lower orders" were unable to communicate -- not only with us
> > > but with
> > > one another, while I held to the view that 1) he was probably
> > > wrong and or
> > > 2) that in any event we could never be certain but 3) that it was
> > > a measure
> > > of our hubris to deny the possibility. As times have gone forward
> > > since his
> > > death, the empirical jury is still out in my view, but I think my
> > > positiongrows stronger day by day.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Nikki
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > >
> > > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch
> > > <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-> 
> > stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001> the video on AOL Home.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > Test your Star IQ Play now!
> > >
<http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR>
> > >
> > >
> >--
> >An archive of all list discussion is available at 
> >https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
> >
> >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> 
> --
> An archive of all list discussion is available at
https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
> 
> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy

  _____  

Test your Star IQ Play now!
<http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR> 

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