pcplantdb

[Stephanie Gerson <sgerson@stanfordalumni.org>]

oi gente,

phewff, I must say - after not reading plantdb emails for a few days, it 
is a bit difficult to respond to different people's comments.  I am 
thrilled that this conversation is thriving, but also wonder how to sift 
through emails and thoughts effectively.  As John said:

what basic docs do we need to start building (prelim. spec., general 
proposal, etc. etc.) so this isn't just a bunch of us tossing ideas 
around?

hmmm..is there an easier way to brainstorm collectively and build upon 
our comments?  I wonder.  So far, I have been reading all the emails, and 
recording important comments so that they don't get lost or forgotten.  I 
suggest we all check out this Wiki website: http://en.wikipedia.org/ for 
ideas (the frontend *and* backend can be modified by users - I know some 
computerfolk would be worried about something like this, but I find it 
very exciting).  Basically a website that adapts along _with_ its users 
(resonance with permaculture/ecology is obvious).  Could we perhaps use 
something like this as our project-development tool?  And have bulletin 
board/forum themes going on simultaneously (i.e. where to host the site; 
which criteria to include; scary computer-talk that no one else 
understands) so that specific topics/issues can be propelled and built 
upon by the people interested in them?  

Because with regards to what John calls "basic docs," I could certainly 
type up everything I've thought about and scripted (A LOT), but then it's 
a one-way conversation.  And how would you all edit/contribute to it 
effectively?  what do you all think?  any ideas?

Which brings me to a related matter Rich brought up.  He said dividing 
forums per plants would yield very low traffic.  I was actually thinking 
of dividing forums per guilds (wild and cultivated - good distinction), 
and allow people to post questions and discuss different guilds.  But of 
course, different guilds can be very closely related (once you start 
substituting plants, there can be just minor differences between guilds).  
So I started thinking - could we make a web - or guild - of forums?  So 
different forums, like guilds, can be closely 'related' in a UI-way?  Yes 
this is autology right here (any cyberneticians out there?).  of course 
leading to, how do we design the site to be a guild itself?  (In the same 
way, for example, that Permaculture principles are applied to education, 
politics, economics...how to apply them to web design/development.)  
Thinkmap/TouchGraph is an obvious one, using an interconnected web as a 
visual interface - but what about for site navigation and site strucutre?  
Coders will have fun thinking about this in terms of programming.  We 
have already done this by going with TouchGraph instead of Thinkmap, 
because the former is an available resource and the latter is not...but 
how to take the principles further into our actual design?  Basically, 
trying to design the site according to the principles that it is trying 
to convey/teach, in this case guild design.  

Not going crazy, just offering food for thought as we continue our 
exploration process...

And I have few specific responses for some of you.  Before that, I just 
want to say that I feel super lucky to be working with all of you, 
clearly talented and dedicated people.  But I’m going to be pretty 
occupied for the next month or so, and will be out of the country with no 
internet access for a little while.  So if you don’t hear from me, please 
know that I am reading along and very interested, and I’ll respond when I 
can.  Perhaps I’ll draw out my scripted UI in Photoshop or something to 
send to you (unless one of you coders out there wants to make a little 
mock-up together, I would be delighted!)  

And in a month or so, when my schedule is changing and I will have more 
time, I volunteer to be the project coordinator and grantwriter (I've 
already done quite a bit of writing about this project idea, and 
researched potential foundations).  Also, my main interest lies in 
Environmental Education and Interactive Educational Technologies, so I 
can help with UI/HCI/overall user-experience in that realm.  Thank you to 
John for volunteering to be the tester- looks like we have quite a tough 
critic! :)   Any suggestions, objections?

but keep stoking this fire, yalls…

So here are my specific responses, I'LL RESPOND IN CAPS AGAIN:

Rich-
>>-help people in designing guilds for their specific locale,
>>circumstances, and preferences
What info is needed for this?

INFO WOULD BE A DATABASE OF EXISTING AND DEVELOPING GUILDS, COLLECTED BY 
TALKING TO PERMACULTURISTS, GATHERING CASE STUDIES, RESEARCHING WILD/
CULTIVATED GUILDS, ETC..AND PERHAPS STARTING WITH WHAT JOHN RECOMMENDED.  
AS THE DB GETS MORE FLESHED OUT, PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO USE THE 
TOUCHGRAPH GUILD-DESIGN TOOL TO ACTUALLY _DESIGN_ GUILDS.  IF THIS IS 
STILL UNCLEAR, I CAN CERTAINLY DESCRIBE IN BETTER DETAIL...

>>-allow practitioners to enter information, ask questions, find 
references
>>(people, books, websites, etc.) relating to guild design--
What are the questions they want to ask?

THE QUESTIONS THEY ARE ALREADY ASKING ON THE LISTSERV!  I HAVE X PEST AND 
Z AND Y GROWING IN MY GARDEN, WHAT ELSE CAN I GROW TOGETHER WITH Z AND Y 
TO ALLEVIATE THE PROBLEM OF X?  OR, I HAVE X, Y, AND Z GROWING, COULD 
THIS BE THE BEGINNING OF A GUILD AND WHAT CAN I ADD?  OR I PLANTED X NEXT 
TO Y, AND IT KILLED Y, ANY IDEA WHY?  SO MANY QUESTIONS ABOUT *
RELATIONSHIPS* TO BE ASKED!  

>>...the program be able to
>>suggest guilds. ...The program would learn based on
>>the information we provide it.
> 
What criteria would be used to sugest a guild. I'd guess
habitat/existing plants. Anything else?

MANY OTHER CRITERIA OF COURSE. GEORG MENTIONED ROOT STRUCTURE.  WE COULD 
ALSO ADD TRAITS LIKE NITROGEN FIXATION, COVER CROP, ETC.  AND ROBIN 
ADDED:

soil type, climate/latitude/longitude/elevation [in native 
habitat], season, diseases, susceptibilities…

THERE ARE MANY.  WE WOULD DEFINITELY WANT TO NARROW IT DOWN TO AN 
ESSENTIAL FEW, BECAUSE OF COURSE THERE ARE INFINITE CRITERIA, BUT TOO 
MANY WOULD MAKE THE TOOL CUMBERSOME AND NOT USEFUL.  PERHAPS WE COULD 
CHOOSE 5-6, AND THEN HAVE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF SEARCHES/SUGGESTIONS- 
SATISFYING ALL 5-6 (RIGOROUS) OR ONLY 1 (SIMPLE).  IF IT IS TO SATISFY 
ONLY 1, WOULD PROBABLY BE HABITAT, SINCE THAT IS THE MOST ESSENTIAL.  AM 
I MAKING SENSE?

+++

John:
I suggest we bear in mind the Permaculture principle of protracted and
thoughtful observation rather than protracted and thoughtless labor.

I DON’T CONSIDER THESE IDEA EXCHANGES “THOUGHTLESS.”

There's what's known in software development land as "feature creep." 
Meaning more and more desirable features become seen as necessary. Many a 
promising project has been bogged down and/or done in by feature creep. 
Something to be aware of..

THERE’S ALSO WHAT’S KNOWN IN SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT, AND ANY KIND OF DESIGN

FOR THAT MATTER, AS BRAINSTORMING – WHERE YOU OPENLY THROW OUT ALL IDEAS 
AND POSSIBILITIES, AND ONLY LATER EDIT, CONDENSE.  SO YOU DON’T LIMIT 
YOURSELF.  NO ONE IS BUILDING ANYTHING YET, SO WHY CAN’T WE LET OURSELVES 
EXPLORE THE POSSIBILITIES?

I'm already testing the design and the design process...a rare treat in 
the QA/testing biz! 

THEN YOU WILL BE VERY HELPFUL IN THIS BEGINNING STAGE, AS WE ARE STILL 
DEVELOPING THE METHODOLOGY _FOR_ THE DESIGN PROCESS.

I REALLY ENJOYED READING YOUR STARTING POINT.  WONDERFUL.  I SKETCHED OUT 
SOMETHING SIMILAR.  YES, WONDERFUL.

+++

allrighty pardners, time for this cowgirl to stop writing

vibrating high...

peace
*Stephanie



+++++++++++++++
Stephanie Gerson
sgerson@stanfordalumni.org
415.871.5683


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