North American Fruit Explorers mailing list at ibiblio

[Steven C <filtertitle@aol.com>]

How about the new Italian 'Black Star' cherry? Anyone?

SC

On Dec 25, 2012, at 12:00 PM, nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re:  Black Tartarian cherry (Scott Smith)
>   2.  Mulching blueberries (Jim Fruth)
>   3. Re:  mulching blueberries with woodchips (Michael Dossett)
>   4. Re:  Mulching blueberries (david liezen)
>   5.  Pruning advice? (Jay Cutts)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 12:07:01 -0500
> From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [nafex] Black Tartarian cherry
> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <A186818F-E328-4460-B7FB-2E756B06E6FD@cs.jhu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> Steve, I haven't gotten much fruit off mine but it looks to be a reasonable 
> cherry.  No cracking and good flavor.  Productivity and rotting propensity 
> is to be determined on it.
> 
> Scott z7 MD
> 
> On Dec 19, 2012, at 8:11 PM, Steven Covacci <filtertitle@aol.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Is sweet cherry cv. 'Black Tartarian' worth growing on the northeastern 
>> coast: NJ?  Besides bird-pressure(?)
>> Thanks,
>> Steve; NJ
>> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 12:04:51 -0600
> From: "Jim Fruth" <jimfruth@charter.net>
> Subject: [nafex] Mulching blueberries
> To: <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
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>    My blueberries are planted in silt-fence fabric that I got from a road 
> construction site.  It does the mulching job even better that the pine 
> needle mulch that I used to use.  Best of all, it doesn't need replacing.
> 
> Jim Fruth
> Pequot Lakes, MN 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 10:41:44 -0800 (PST)
> From: Michael Dossett <phainopepla@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [nafex] mulching blueberries with woodchips
> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>    <1356374504.50586.YahooMailNeo@web142301.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
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> 
> Alan,
> ?
> Telling the difference between a chlorosis derived from excessive pH and 
> one caused by poor drainage is actually fairly straight forward.? A 
> combination of leaf tissue nutrient analysis and soil pH testing, in this 
> case, was enough to confirm what was going on and verified the site 
> history.? Overall, leaf tissue nutrient analysis is a great way to monitor 
> what is going on?and tells you far more than a simple soil test for 
> nutrient analysis.
> ?
> I noticed two things about your links to land grant university guidelines 
> about wood chips that are worth pointing out.? One is that they are for the 
> upper Midwest and the SE.? I already mentioned that pine-bark substrates 
> and mulches were the rule of thumb for production in the SE.? This fits 
> very well with their production systems and conditions.? The other thing I 
> noticed?about your links is that the actual guidelines (not the project 
> report from the grant, which only compared woodchips to no mulch and did 
> not compare to sawdust nor did it give actual guidelines) also recommended 
> sawdust.? If you read my email, I noted that in the Pacific Northwest, the 
> conventional treatment is sawdust, with or without compost underneath.? I'm 
> not saying that woodchips won't work, but if you read what I wrote, where 
> wood chips or hog fuel were used in side-by-side treatments under the same 
> growing conditions as compared to sawdust with and without compost,
> sawdust performed better, therefor I would not recommend wood chips in this 
> area.? This is based on observations from grower's experimenting on their 
> own, as well as grower-managed replicated research plots and 
> university-managed trials. The links you provided are not at all 
> contradictory to the argument I was making, but don't provide enough 
> information for people to decide which of these was better, only that 
> either can be used as a mulch and that wood chips is better than no mulch 
> at all.? Aside from potential differences in the types of wood and trees 
> that chips may come from, wood chips and sawdust break-down differently and 
> do different things for the soil and at different rates.? They tie-up 
> nitrogen differently so that fertilization regimes will have to be 
> adjusted, they need to be replenished at different rates, they alter C/N 
> ratio of the soil differently, and in many areas where incorporation of 
> sawdust is recommended, incorporating wood
> chips would also change porosity and drainage differently in addition to 
> magnifying the effects already mentioned.? These all go into adjusting the 
> production system, rather than merely one aspect and are likely to change 
> with different growing climates.
> ?
> Oregon State University currently has a project for organic blueberry 
> production using weed mat as a weed control.? This is in various 
> combinations with sawdust and compost mulches on their own as well, as 
> above and below the weed mat.? One thing that has come out of the 
> preliminary results, so far, is an effect on soil temperature and canopy 
> temperature that is changing the rate of water use in the plants and also a 
> change in the rate of loss of soil organic matter.? Not to mention the fact 
> that voles loved the weed mat and the researchers found the need to bait 
> under the mat to control them.? This is the sort of project that will be 
> able to provide real recomendations for organic blueberry production down 
> the road as it takes into account all aspects of the production system 
> including fertility, irrigation, and soil management in addition to growth 
> and yield.
> ?
> Michael?
> 
> Michael Dossett
> Mission, British Columbia
> www.Mdossettphoto.com
> phainopepla@yahoo.com
> 
> From: Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com>
> To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org 
> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 1:17 PM
> Subject: [nafex] mulching blueberries with woodchips
> 
> Michael, how can you tell the difference from a chlorosis derived from
> excessive pH from one caused by poor drainage?.? I'm a little suspicious
> that those low points may have been like low points in many fields-
> possessing poor drainage.? Of course this is an obvious observation that
> was probably explored.
> 
> Here in the northeast woodchips are often used to mulch blueberries in home
> orchard settings, which is all I'm knowledgeable about and I fail to see
> why they should ever create problems- relatives like rhododendrons are
> routinely mulched with shredded wood as well and these plants thrive under
> this treatment at scores of estates I've seen. .? The only trouble I've
> had? with shredded wood is that it sometimes mats up and excludes rain
> water- it just runs off the surface.
> 
> I don't completely trust the kind of anecdotal examples you supply (not
> that I'm not offering the same thing with much smaller scale examples).
> I'd need a lot more info about how mulch was applied and what the weather
> and soil issues were- actually I'd need to see the site myself to be
> satisfied.? Always the problem with contradicting anecdotes.
> 
> Here are several mostly landgrant university guidlines that do recommend
> mulching blueberries with woodchips.? I'd be interested in any research
> based info you have on the affects of mulching blueberries with woodchips
> as I couldn't find any actual research on the subject.
> 
> http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNC97-193&y=1998&t=1
> 
> http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNC97-193&y=1998&t=1
> 
> http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/hil/hil-8207.html
> 
> http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/hortnews/2001/3-23-2001/blueberries.html
> 
> 
>> 
>> I have no doubt that what you say about humic acid production and mulching
> blueberries may be true, but there are a lot of >variables at play, such as
> what kind of mulch, or what kind of wood chips, and where the trees grew
> etc.? Just as there are exceptions to every rule, there are circumstances
> in which blueberries can be successfully grown in soils with a pH range
> higher than the 4.5-5.5 typically recommended; however, as a general
> guideline, most people will have the best shot at success if they follow
> this.? I have been to literally hundreds of different blueberry operations
> over the years, both in the NW and elsewhere?(there's more than 30,000
> acres in blueberry production within a 45 minute drive of my house) and the
> one thing I can say is that I absolutely cannot recommend wood chips as a
> mulch for blueberries.? While some people may have success with it
> elsewhere, in this area, every single field I've seen where they have
> mulched with wood
> chips or hog fuel, has underperformed, often times in comparison with the
> same variety being grown by the same person just a few rows away with
> conventional treatments of compost and sawdust.? As I've said, there are
> always exceptions.? In Georgia and Florida, most of the commercial
> blueberry production takes place in pine bark substrate, or with
> incorporated pine bark in the soil.? They have developed a system where
> this works for them, although they still have to acidify the soil.? In fact
> one very large blueberry farm I visited in Florida last month was growing
> primarily in a pine bark incorporated and mulched system with sulfuric acid
> in the water to help acidify, and they still had iron deficiency in some
> low spots in their fields.? It turns out that these spots were where there
> were limestone tailings near the surface that had been left there decades
> before, and they just couldn't get the soil and water acid enough in these
> places to avoid
> nutrient problems.
> ?
> Every site is different and not all wood chips or other materials are the
> same, and different cultivars certainly have a range of tolerances for
> differing soil conditions and production practices.? I encourage people to
> try to get their conditions as close to what the recommendations are as a
> start, because I believe this will be their best chance for success.?
> Having said that, sometimes you have to improvise and experiment to find
> another solution, and I encourage people to do that too.
> ?
> Michael
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 20:13:42 +0000
> From: david liezen <chandos49@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nafex] Mulching blueberries
> To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY174-W237227192BD5B3AB937434BE3B0@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> 
> Jim,
> I so appreciate your comments, along with the thoughtful missives from 
> Michael Dossett. Keeping blueberries in my back yard is far simpler, it 
> seems, than in many other areas of our fair land.?
> 
> I just added sphagnum (peat) moss to shift things a bit to acid and provide 
> some organic material to the bare sand before planting the li'l guys, 
> soaked 'em well every week or so, depending on the weather, and waited for 
> growth. At the end of the first season, I mulched with shavings taken out 
> of the duck shed. Have done that only once so far. A buddy, also in NAFEX, 
> saw them and exclaimed his aren't doing as well. His soil is more clay, 
> from what I've seen, and I think your observations could be of help for his 
> hope to grow blueberries.
> ?
> My major concern was keeping the ducks from eating the plants down to the 
> ground! That happened last July when a barrier got overturned a month after 
> planting Patriot. It recovered, but I fear the newer growth may not be 
> tough enough to handle winter. It's supposed to be quite hardy. Here's 
> hopin'.
> 
> A Question: Several times I've seen advice to avoid fertilizing blueberries 
> - they can be overwhelmed, apparently, chemically "burned" I suppose, which 
> is why duck droppings can be such a boon. What do you advise in encouraging 
> growth and fruit for blueberries?
> 
> Thanks, and Merry Christmas,
> 
> Dave Liezen
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------
>> From: jimfruth@charter.net
>> To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 12:04:51 -0600
>> Subject: [nafex] Mulching blueberries
>> 
>> My blueberries are planted in silt-fence fabric that I got from a road
>> construction site. It does the mulching job even better that the pine
>> needle mulch that I used to use. Best of all, it doesn't need replacing.
>> 
>> Jim Fruth
>> Pequot Lakes, MN
>> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 14:05:59 -0700
> From: Jay Cutts <orders@cuttsreviews.com>
> Subject: [nafex] Pruning advice?
> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <50D8C3B7.4080508@cuttsreviews.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> I've to an Illinois Everbearing mulberry that is about 10 feet tall now. 
> It is a single stem but has grown in a very bush way, with several 
> branches close to the ground that are very vigorous, often growing 
> nearly as tall as the leader. I have had trouble even getting the tree 
> to grow up from the leader because these lower branches have been more 
> vigorous.
> 
> One advantage of having low hanging branches is that the fruit is easy 
> to get to. However, I probably need to train it up as a regular tree and 
> figure that it should branch until about 3 or 4 feet off the ground. I 
> assume that as the tree gets mature, it will eventually shade out the 
> bottom-most branches.
> 
> So here's my concern. I just sawed off the very lowest branch, which was 
> only about 6 inches off the ground and constituted a good quarter of the 
> bulk of the tree. There is another major branch at about 8 inches above 
> the ground and a third at about 18 to 20 inches or so. After that, the 
> next branch is about 3 feet, which I think may be acceptable.
> 
> So I've cut off the lowest branch - taking a huge chunk of the tree with 
> it. Should I cut off the other two lower branches now, which result in 
> removing over half of the tree? Or should I leave them temporarily, 
> letting them grow during this next season and maybe cutting off the 
> bottom-most one next year, and the third one the year after?
> 
> I'm asking myself what is wrong with leaving it the way it is. For one 
> thing, the lower branches just put on most of the growth and the tree 
> doesn't seem to grow up from the leader that much. For another, it 
> doesn't LOOK like a tree! It's just a huge bushy thing and it seems like 
> eventually those lower branches will have to go.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jay
> 
> Jay Cutts
> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013)
> (505) 281-0684
> 10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days
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> 
> 
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