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- From: Michael Dossett <phainopepla@yahoo.com>
- To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: Re: [nafex] vaccinium tolerant of alkaline soils
- Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 13:01:20 -0800 (PST)
There is some work being done at Oregon State University and elsewhere with
using V. arboreum as a rootstock for growing highbush blueberries. In fact,
people have been experimenting with this for the last 40+ years. Personally,
I am skeptical of this method for commercial production. There is a reason
why it has been experimental for over 40 years and why it still isn't widely
used! That said, this may be a viable option for homeowners are small-scale
production in some areas. The trouble is having access to the plants. The
other trouble is that blueberries rejuvenate themselves by producing new
canes from the crown. Canes older than 4-5 years are not very productive
(and only get worse over time) and are typically pruned out to encourage new
canes to break from the crown. The most productive wood on most blueberries
is 2 years old. If you are grafted to V. arboreum then you are no longer
getting new cane development from the crown and
the plants will become less productive over time. It also makes pruning
them much trickier.
Paul Lyrene (retired) and his successor, Jim Olmstead, at the University of
Florida blueberry breeding program have been working to produce hybrids with
V. arboreum. Vaccinium arboreum is diploid whereas highbush blueberry is
tetraploid. They now have some good induced tetraploid hybrids and a
generation or so of backcrosses where they are starting to get commercial
fruit size and quality back (V. arboreum are soft and dark and don't have as
good of flavor). Of course, breeding is a long process and I would expect
that they are probably at least 15 years away from releasing any varieties
from this work. Having said that, there is a push to develop some good
populations and deposit them in the National Clonal Germplasm Repository for
others to start working with as well. I know that a grant to support that
project wasn't funded last year, but Paul and Jim are working to finding
alternate funding to make that project possible.
V. angustifolium is an acid-loving tetraploid. If Jim Fruth is growing it
well at pH 7.3, all I can think of is that he must have lots of organic
matter, lots of mycorrhizea, and no iron problems on his site. It is a
largely self-incompatible (there are a few exceptions) and rhizomatous
(instead of crown-forming) species. These have been limitations as to why it
hasn't been used more as a parent, but V. angustifolium is in the ancestry of
many (perhaps most) modern highbush blueberry cultivars. 'Patriot' has it as
a grandparent, and some of the initial selections that Coville used in making
the first blueberry crosses in the early 1900s are believed to have been
naturally occuring 1/2 or 1/4 angustifolium hybrids. The modern half-high
cultivars such as 'Chippewa', 'Polaris', 'Northsky', 'Northblue' and
'Northcountry' all have a high percentage of V. angustifolium parentage.
Michael
Michael Dossett
Mission, British Columbia
www.Mdossettphoto.com
phainopepla@yahoo.com
From: William McNam <billmcnam@yahoo.com>
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 11:46 AM
Subject: [nafex] vaccinium tolerant of alkaline soils
Does anyone have experience using
vaccinium arboreum as rootstock?
Does anyone know of the existence of interspecific hybrids involving
vaccinium arboreum or vaccinium angustifolium?
**********************
----Forwarded Message----
From: jfruth@uslink.net
To:
Cc: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sat, Nov 25, 2006 3:45 PM MSK
Subject: Re: blueberrries in alkaline soil
Bill,
1) Sand, with alot of Calcium in it.
2) I don't know. Never tried it.
3) Of course!
4) Never measured it but, if I had to guess, I'd say, "1/4 cup or less." They
grow rather thickly so it is difficult to tell.
5) Identical
6) The coldest it has gotten here has been -46º F. They only don't bear from
lack of rain.
7) I haven't been curious enough to check. They are the wild blueberry here
and I haven't seen any other species around here.
Jim Fruth
Brambleberry Farm
Pequot
----- Original Message ----- From: bill d
To: jfruth@uslink.net
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:46 AM
Subject: blueberrries in alkaline soil
Thanks Jim!
What's the soil type there--sand ,clay, loam?
What happens if they're grown in soil with acid ph?
Are the plants self-fertile?
How much fruit do you get off one plant?
Are they distinguishable in taste from other species of blueberries?
How much winter cold can they withstand without injury?
Do you know of any interspecific hybrids of V. angustifolium with other
Vaccinium species?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Bill asked:
Hi JIm!
What kind of blueberries are these that thrive in alkaline soil?
How tall do they grow?
Do you know what species they are?
Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Vaccinium angustifolium, aka Dwarf, Sugar, Early or Low-Bush
Blueberry.
The pH here is 7.3. They grow up to, about, 18"
Jim Fruth
Brambleberry Farm
Pequot Lakes, MN 56472
http://www.bberryfarm.com/
(218)568-8483 [Store]
*****************
----Forwarded Message----
From: lonrom@hevanet.com
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Mon, Feb 14, 2005 4:29 AM MSK
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] blueberries for neutral soil
In one of the older POMONAs there is an article from (name escapes me) who
studied Vaccinium arboreum, so called "farkleberry" of the South. It was
sufficiently tolerant of alkaline soils that northern highbush blueberries
could be grafted on the species and they would survive and produce when they
would die on their own roots. One old timer apparently had a patch of such
grafted berries that was 25 years old and in good production. I have a piece
of V. arboreum grafted on highbush blueberries, and it's quite interesting.
I had thought of crossing the two, but the V. arboreum doesn't bloom until
the highbush types have ripe fruit.
-Lon Rombough
Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, at
http://www.bunchgrapes.com Winner of the Garden Writers Association "Best
Talent in Writing" award for 2003.
On Feb 13, 2005, at 2:33 PM, Louisa Rogoff Thompson wrote:
Jim,
I believe all blueberries require very acidic soil, but some of their close
cousins, the huckleberries (Gaylussacia spp.) do not. Around here, black
huckleberry (Gaylussacia baccata) grows along with blueberries in extremely
acidic soil, but also grows in neutral soil if some other factor limits
competition, and produces small but sweet berries. This particular plant is
a very low shrubby groundcover, about 6-12" tall and woody. It's quite
attractive, with silver-grey woody stems and exceptional fall foliage. I
believe it is found as far north as Newfoundland and Saskatchewan. Also
dangleberry, Gaylussacia frondosa, a much taller shrub (6-7'), has sweet,
juicy fruit and grows as far north as southern New Hampshire. I don't know
if any true huckleberries (as opposed to Solanum spp.) are available from
fruit nurseries. If not, you could try native plant nurseries.
Louisa Thompson
Columbia, MD
Zone 7a
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From: Michael Dossett <phainopepla@yahoo.com>
To: Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com>,
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Subject: Re: [nafex] Was:Pine needle mulch, now: Blueberries in high pH
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These are both great points. I think the same thing Lee said about soybean
meal for fertilizing blueberries can be said for organic fertilizers in
general (some manures can be an exception) and are not specific blueberry.
They are less prone to leaching and so often need fewer applications, they
break down slowly (often temperature dependent rather than moisture
dependent) and are less prone to burning the roots, because release is
temperature rather than moisture dependent they are also used more or less in
synch with plant growth requirements. Whenever possible I use organic
fertilizers for plants in the ground, as I think the pros outweigh the cons
in most circumstances. I wasn't trying to imply that ammonium sulfate or urea
were the only ways to fertlize blueberries. If your pH is in the correct
range, then your mineralized nitrogen from organic sources will also end up
being mostly in the reduced form (ammonium) useable to blueberries.
Michael
Michael Dossett
Mission, British Columbia
www.Mdossettphoto.com
phainopepla@yahoo.com
From: Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com>
To: Michael Dossett <phainopepla@yahoo.com>; nafex mailing list at ibiblio
<nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nafex] Was:Pine needle mulch, now: Blueberries in high pH
The advantages of soybean meal over ammonium sulfate or urea for blueberries
(and other plants) is that there's less chance of burning the roots (a
particular problem with blueberries), the nitrogen is released slowly more or
less in synch with plant needs, and only a single annual application is
needed. I make one application per year, sometime between late fall and late
winter.
Just one other note to add to Michael's comments on iron deficiency: The
symptoms show up first on young leaves. This is important because similar
symptoms on older leaves of any plants are a symptom of magnesium deficiency.
Lee Reich, PhD
Come visit my farmden at http://leereich.blogspot.com/
http://leereich.com/
Books by Lee Reich:
A Northeast Gardener's Year
The Pruning Book
Weedless Gardening
Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
Landscaping with Fruit
Grow Fruit Naturally
On Dec 20, 2012, at 2:19 PM, Michael Dossett wrote:
Lee is right, Gypsum (calcium sulfate) is a neutral salt and in most
circumstances has no effect on soil pH. There have been some reports of it
raising pH in soils that are high in aluminum, but this is attributed to
increasing the solubility of aluminum in these soils. Gypsum can be
beneficial or detrimental depending on your soil, but it is often most useful
for breaking up heavy clay soils and displacing sodium (by replacing it with
calcium) in soils with excess sodium. Depending on the composition of your
soil, it may in fact lower pH very slightly but this is also specific to
certain soils and generally it must be applied at high rates to have this
effect.
>
>Blueberries need acid soils (pH 4.5-5.5) for two reasons. One is because
>they have poor nitrate reductase activity. As soil pH is reduced, nitrogen
>is more commonly found as ammonium, which blueberries are able to take up
>and utilize. At higher pH, soil nitrogen is oxidized into nitrates, which
>blueberries are very inefficient at utilizing for growth. If using
>conventional fertilizers for blueberries (i.e. if NOT using soybean meal as
>suggested earlier) then one should use either ammonium or urea, depending on
>your objectives. The other reason why blueberries need low soil pH is also
>because they often have problems with iron deficiency in higher pH soils.
>As soil pH rises, iron becomes less bioavailable (as do zinc and manganese,
>although these are less problematic in blueberry). Blueberries grown in
>soil that is too high in pH usually develop iron deficiency before they
>experience nitrogen deficiency. Iron deficiency in blueberries
>manifests itself as a yellowing of the leaves with some green retained at
>the midvein and in some of the other leaf veins, leading to what many people
>refer to as a "Christmas tree" pattern. Google "Blueberry iron deficiency"
>and you will see many good pictures. Many people see this yellowing and
>assume it is nitrogen deficiency so they never really fix the problem, or
>worse, they burn the plants by giving them too much or the wrong kind of
>nitrogen, as blueberries are very sensitive to high EC.
>
>Adding elemental sulfur about 6-12 months before planting is the best way to
>lower soil pH (the rate is dependent on the amount of lowering needed and
>your soil type). This is because soil microbes break down the sulfur over
>time and it gets converted into sulfuric acid. The effect is temporary, so
>you should monitor soil pH every year or so to make sure it stays in the
>proper range. Fertilizing blueberries with Ammonium Sulfate provides the
>correct form of nitrogen and has the effect of lowering pH slightly at the
>same time (although to a lesser extent than adding elemental sulfur). This
>is the recommended nitrogen source for established blueberry plantings where
>the pH has started to creep upward. Urea has less effect on soil pH and is
>the preferred nitrogen source for blueberries where the soil pH is already
>in the correct range. There is some evidence that high organic matter and
>mycorrhizae may help to mitigate nitrogen issues when soil
>pH is higher than optimal, so that blueberries can get sufficient nitrogen.
>Unfortunately, this doesn't fix the iron deficiency that occurs in many
>soils when pH is too high, so it can't be counted on as a way to grow
>blueberries in higher than optimal soil pH at every site.
>
>Of course everything I just said mostly applies to growing blueberries in
>the ground. If you grow in pots or bales of peat, there may be other issues
>with the soil chemistry which affect how well blueberries perform.
>
>Michael
>
>Michael Dossett
>Mission, British Columbia
>http://www.mdossettphoto.com/
>phainopepla@yahoo.com
>
>From: Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com>
>To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:20 AM
>Subject: Re: [nafex] Was:Pine needle mulch, now: Blueberries in high pH
>
>Gypsum does not raise pH.
>I wouldn't worry about the microorganisms.
>
>Lee Reich, PhD
>Come visit my farmden at http://leereich.blogspot.com/
>http://leereich.com/
>
>Books by Lee Reich:
>A Northeast Gardener's Year
>The Pruning Book
>Weedless Gardening
>Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
>Landscaping with Fruit
>Grow Fruit Naturally
>
>On Dec 20, 2012, at 9:47 AM, Andrew Hahn wrote:
>
>
>Thanks for the amendment suggestions, I hadn't though of soybean meal as
>>
>being particularly good for acid loving plants and avoided Gypsum so as not
>>
>to rais the pH. Probably time to test the soil again to see what it needs.
>>
>
>>
>I had wondered why naturally occurring fungi would not be picked up and
>>
>couldn't find much about how common thy were. It is pretty likely my soil
>>
>has at least some, while I don't know of any ericaceous plants here in the
>>
>plains, 20 miles away the mountains have serval species.
>>
>
>>
>Very helpful, thank you.
>>
>
>>
>Andy
>>
>
>>
>On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 10:01 AM, <nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
>>
>
>>
>An excellent, inexpensive, and organic (especially if non-GMO) source of N
>>>
>for blueberries and other acid-loving plants is soybean meal. Good for any
>>>
>plant, in fact.
>>>
>
>>>
>I did graduate research involving ericoid mycorrhiza and found no effect
>>>
>from inoculations. In fact it was hard to keep control plants from picking
>>>
>up inoculum as a general contaminant. The only exception would be places
>>>
>where blueberries or ericaceous plants are naturally absent and plants are
>>>
>raised without any source of contamination -- in Australia, for instance.
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>--
>>
>"The trouble with being poor is that it takes up all your time." - Willem
>>
>de Kooning
>>
>__________________
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From: "Naomi Counides" <naomi@oznayim.us>
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Subject: Re: [nafex] Soil pH
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I have a very alkaline well in Idaho and we use it for irrigation. This is
not a formal ph reading on the soil but there is a rosette shaped weed with
purple flowers that is a pretty good indicator of alkaline soil. I used to
have it all over. I have goats. I have been dumping fresh manure 6 inches
thick any place I can for 15 winters. That weed is gone.
Naomi
-----Original Message-----
From: nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Jay Cutts
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:38 PM
To: Michael Dossett; nafex mailing list at ibiblio
Subject: [nafex] Soil pH
We have the added problem here in New Mexico that our irrigation water is
alkaline and very high in calcium. It's hard to remediate the soil when the
near-daily watering (and, yes, without watering at least every few days,
everything would die) is alkaline. In addition, a huge amount of calcium
builds up in the soil, which seems to stunt most plants.
Any ideas, especially in a long-term, organic kind of way?
Regards,
Jay
Jay Cutts
Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013)
(505) 281-0684
10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days
On 12/20/2012 12:19 PM, Michael Dossett wrote:
> Lee is right, Gypsum (calcium sulfate) is a neutral salt and in most
circumstances has no effect on soil pH. There have been some reports of it
raising pH in soils that are high in aluminum, but this is attributed to
increasing the solubility of aluminum in these soils. Gypsum can be
beneficial or detrimental depending on your soil, but it is often most
useful for breaking up heavy clay soils and displacing sodium (by replacing
it with calcium) in soils with excess sodium. Depending on the composition
of your soil, it may in fact lower pH very slightly but this is also
specific to certain soils and generally it must be applied at high rates to
have this effect.
>
> Blueberries need acid soils (pH 4.5-5.5) for two reasons. One is because
they have poor nitrate reductase activity. As soil pH is reduced, nitrogen
is more commonly found as ammonium, which blueberries are able to take up
and utilize. At higher pH, soil nitrogen is oxidized into nitrates, which
blueberries are very inefficient at utilizing for growth. If using
conventional fertilizers for blueberries (i.e. if NOT using soybean meal as
suggested earlier) then one should use either ammonium or urea, depending on
your objectives. The other reason why blueberries need low soil pH is also
because they often have problems with iron deficiency in higher pH soils.
As soil pH rises, iron becomes less bioavailable (as do zinc and manganese,
although these are less problematic in blueberry). Blueberries grown in
soil that is too high in pH usually develop iron deficiency before they
experience nitrogen deficiency. Iron deficiency in blueberries
> manifests itself as a yellowing of the leaves with some green retained
at the midvein and in some of the other leaf veins, leading to what many
people refer to as a "Christmas tree" pattern. Google "Blueberry iron
deficiency" and you will see many good pictures. Many people see this
yellowing and assume it is nitrogen deficiency so they never really fix the
problem, or worse, they burn the plants by giving them too much or the wrong
kind of nitrogen, as blueberries are very sensitive to high EC.
>
> Adding elemental sulfur about 6-12 months before planting is the best way
to lower soil pH (the rate is dependent on the amount of lowering needed and
your soil type). This is because soil microbes break down the sulfur over
time and it gets converted into sulfuric acid. The effect is temporary, so
you should monitor soil pH every year or so to make sure it stays in the
proper range. Fertilizing blueberries with Ammonium Sulfate provides the
correct form of nitrogen and has the effect of lowering pH slightly at the
same time (although to a lesser extent than adding elemental sulfur). This
is the recommended nitrogen source for established blueberry plantings where
the pH has started to creep upward. Urea has less effect on soil pH and is
the preferred nitrogen source for blueberries where the soil pH is already
in the correct range. There is some evidence that high organic matter and
mycorrhizae may help to mitigate nitrogen issues when soil
> pH is higher than optimal, so that blueberries can get sufficient
nitrogen. Unfortunately, this doesn't fix the iron deficiency that occurs
in many soils when pH is too high, so it can't be counted on as a way to
grow blueberries in higher than optimal soil pH at every site.
>
> Of course everything I just said mostly applies to growing blueberries in
the ground. If you grow in pots or bales of peat, there may be other issues
with the soil chemistry which affect how well blueberries perform.
>
> Michael
>
> Michael Dossett
> Mission, British Columbia
> www.Mdossettphoto.com
> phainopepla@yahoo.com
>
> From: Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com>
> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [nafex] Was:Pine needle mulch, now: Blueberries in high
> pH
>
> Gypsum does not raise pH.
> I wouldn't worry about the microorganisms.
>
> Lee Reich, PhD
> Come visit my farmden at http://leereich.blogspot.com/
> http://leereich.com/
>
> Books by Lee Reich:
> A Northeast Gardener's Year
> The Pruning Book
> Weedless Gardening
> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
> Landscaping with Fruit
> Grow Fruit Naturally
>
> On Dec 20, 2012, at 9:47 AM, Andrew Hahn wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the amendment suggestions, I hadn't though of soybean meal
>> as being particularly good for acid loving plants and avoided Gypsum
>> so as not to rais the pH. Probably time to test the soil again to see
what it needs.
>>
>> I had wondered why naturally occurring fungi would not be picked up
>> and couldn't find much about how common thy were. It is pretty likely
>> my soil has at least some, while I don't know of any ericaceous
>> plants here in the plains, 20 miles away the mountains have serval
species.
>>
>> Very helpful, thank you.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 10:01 AM, <nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
wrote:
>>
>>> An excellent, inexpensive, and organic (especially if non-GMO)
>>> source of N for blueberries and other acid-loving plants is soybean
>>> meal. Good for any plant, in fact.
>>>
>>> I did graduate research involving ericoid mycorrhiza and found no
>>> effect from inoculations. In fact it was hard to keep control plants
>>> from picking up inoculum as a general contaminant. The only
>>> exception would be places where blueberries or ericaceous plants are
>>> naturally absent and plants are raised without any source of
contamination -- in Australia, for instance.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "The trouble with being poor is that it takes up all your time." -
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-
[nafex] vaccinium tolerant of alkaline soils,
William McNam, 12/20/2012
- Re: [nafex] vaccinium tolerant of alkaline soils, Michael Dossett, 12/20/2012
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