North American Fruit Explorers mailing list at ibiblio

[Michael Dossett <phainopepla@yahoo.com>]

Lee is right, Gypsum (calcium sulfate) is a neutral salt and in most 
circumstances has no effect on soil pH.  There have been some reports of it 
raising pH in soils that are high in aluminum, but this is attributed to 
increasing the solubility of aluminum in these soils. Gypsum can be 
beneficial or detrimental depending on your soil, but it is often most useful 
for breaking up heavy clay soils and displacing sodium (by replacing it with 
calcium) in soils with excess sodium. Depending on the composition of your 
soil, it may in fact lower pH very slightly but this is also specific to 
certain soils and generally it must be applied at high rates to have this 
effect.
 
Blueberries need acid soils (pH 4.5-5.5) for two reasons.  One is because 
they have poor nitrate reductase activity.  As soil pH is reduced, nitrogen 
is more commonly found as ammonium, which blueberries are able to take up and 
utilize.  At higher pH, soil nitrogen is oxidized into nitrates, which 
blueberries are very inefficient at utilizing for growth.  If using 
conventional fertilizers for blueberries (i.e. if NOT using soybean meal as 
suggested earlier) then one should use either ammonium or urea, depending on 
your objectives. The other reason why blueberries need low soil pH is also 
because they often have problems with iron deficiency in higher pH soils.  As 
soil pH rises, iron becomes less bioavailable (as do zinc and manganese, 
although these are less problematic in blueberry).  Blueberries grown in soil 
that is too high in pH usually develop iron deficiency before they experience 
nitrogen deficiency.  Iron deficiency in blueberries
 manifests itself as a yellowing of the leaves with some green retained at 
the midvein and in some of the other leaf veins, leading to what many people 
refer to as a "Christmas tree" pattern.  Google "Blueberry iron deficiency" 
and you will see many good pictures.  Many people see this yellowing and 
assume it is nitrogen deficiency so they never really fix the problem, or 
worse, they burn the plants by giving them too much or the wrong kind of 
nitrogen, as blueberries are very sensitive to high EC.
 
Adding elemental sulfur about 6-12 months before planting is the best way to 
lower soil pH (the rate is dependent on the amount of lowering needed and 
your soil type).  This is because soil microbes break down the sulfur over 
time and it gets converted into sulfuric acid.  The effect is temporary, so 
you should monitor soil pH every year or so to make sure it stays in the 
proper range.  Fertilizing blueberries with Ammonium Sulfate provides the 
correct form of nitrogen and has the effect of lowering pH slightly at the 
same time (although to a lesser extent than adding elemental sulfur).  This 
is the recommended nitrogen source for established blueberry plantings where 
the pH has started to creep upward.  Urea has less effect on soil pH and is 
the preferred nitrogen source for blueberries where the soil pH is already in 
the correct range.  There is some evidence that high organic matter and 
mycorrhizae may help to mitigate nitrogen issues when soil
 pH is higher than optimal, so that blueberries can get sufficient nitrogen.  
Unfortunately, this doesn't fix the iron deficiency that occurs in many soils 
when pH is too high, so it can't be counted on as a way to grow blueberries 
in higher than optimal soil pH at every site.
 
Of course everything I just said mostly applies to growing blueberries in the 
ground.  If you grow in pots or bales of peat, there may be other issues with 
the soil chemistry which affect how well blueberries perform.
 
Michael

Michael Dossett
Mission, British Columbia
www.Mdossettphoto.com
phainopepla@yahoo.com

From: Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com>
To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nafex] Was:Pine needle mulch, now: Blueberries in high pH

Gypsum does not raise pH. 
I wouldn't worry about the microorganisms.

Lee Reich, PhD
Come visit my farmden at http://leereich.blogspot.com/
http://leereich.com/

Books by Lee Reich:
A Northeast Gardener's Year
The Pruning Book
Weedless Gardening
Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
Landscaping with Fruit
Grow Fruit Naturally

On Dec 20, 2012, at 9:47 AM, Andrew Hahn wrote:

> Thanks for the amendment suggestions, I hadn't though of soybean meal as
> being particularly good for acid loving plants and avoided Gypsum so as not
> to rais the pH. Probably time to test the soil again to see what it needs.
> 
> I had wondered why naturally occurring fungi would not be picked up and
> couldn't find much about how common thy were. It is pretty likely my soil
> has at least some, while I don't know of any ericaceous plants here in the
> plains, 20 miles away the mountains have serval species.
> 
> Very helpful, thank you.
> 
> Andy
> 
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 10:01 AM, <nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
> 
>> An excellent, inexpensive, and organic (especially if non-GMO) source of N
>> for blueberries and other acid-loving plants is soybean meal. Good for any
>> plant, in fact.
>> 
>> I did graduate research involving ericoid mycorrhiza and found no effect
>> from inoculations. In fact it was hard to keep control plants from picking
>> up inoculum as a general contaminant. The only exception would be places
>> where blueberries or ericaceous plants are naturally absent and plants are
>> raised without any source of contamination -- in Australia, for instance.
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "The trouble with being poor is that it takes up all your time." - Willem
> de Kooning
> __________________
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>From orders@cuttsreviews.com  Thu Dec 20 14:38:31 2012
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Subject: [nafex] Soil pH
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We have the added problem here in New Mexico that our irrigation water 
is alkaline and very high in calcium. It's hard to remediate the soil 
when the near-daily watering (and, yes, without watering at least every 
few days, everything would die) is alkaline. In addition, a huge amount 
of calcium builds up in the soil, which seems to stunt most plants.

Any ideas, especially in a long-term, organic kind of way?

Regards,

Jay

Jay Cutts
Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013)
(505) 281-0684
10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days

On 12/20/2012 12:19 PM, Michael Dossett wrote:
> Lee is right, Gypsum (calcium sulfate) is a neutral salt and in most 
> circumstances has no effect on soil pH.  There have been some reports of it 
> raising pH in soils that are high in aluminum, but this is attributed to 
> increasing the solubility of aluminum in these soils. Gypsum can be 
> beneficial or detrimental depending on your soil, but it is often most 
> useful for breaking up heavy clay soils and displacing sodium (by replacing 
> it with calcium) in soils with excess sodium. Depending on the composition 
> of your soil, it may in fact lower pH very slightly but this is also 
> specific to certain soils and generally it must be applied at high rates to 
> have this effect.
>   
> Blueberries need acid soils (pH 4.5-5.5) for two reasons.  One is because 
> they have poor nitrate reductase activity.  As soil pH is reduced, nitrogen 
> is more commonly found as ammonium, which blueberries are able to take up 
> and utilize.  At higher pH, soil nitrogen is oxidized into nitrates, which 
> blueberries are very inefficient at utilizing for growth.  If using 
> conventional fertilizers for blueberries (i.e. if NOT using soybean meal as 
> suggested earlier) then one should use either ammonium or urea, depending 
> on your objectives. The other reason why blueberries need low soil pH is 
> also because they often have problems with iron deficiency in higher pH 
> soils.  As soil pH rises, iron becomes less bioavailable (as do zinc and 
> manganese, although these are less problematic in blueberry).  Blueberries 
> grown in soil that is too high in pH usually develop iron deficiency before 
> they experience nitrogen deficiency.  Iron deficiency in blueberries
>   manifests itself as a yellowing of the leaves with some green retained at 
> the midvein and in some of the other leaf veins, leading to what many 
> people refer to as a "Christmas tree" pattern.  Google "Blueberry iron 
> deficiency" and you will see many good pictures.  Many people see this 
> yellowing and assume it is nitrogen deficiency so they never really fix the 
> problem, or worse, they burn the plants by giving them too much or the 
> wrong kind of nitrogen, as blueberries are very sensitive to high EC.
>   
> Adding elemental sulfur about 6-12 months before planting is the best way 
> to lower soil pH (the rate is dependent on the amount of lowering needed 
> and your soil type).  This is because soil microbes break down the sulfur 
> over time and it gets converted into sulfuric acid.  The effect is 
> temporary, so you should monitor soil pH every year or so to make sure it 
> stays in the proper range.  Fertilizing blueberries with Ammonium Sulfate 
> provides the correct form of nitrogen and has the effect of lowering pH 
> slightly at the same time (although to a lesser extent than adding 
> elemental sulfur).  This is the recommended nitrogen source for established 
> blueberry plantings where the pH has started to creep upward.  Urea has 
> less effect on soil pH and is the preferred nitrogen source for blueberries 
> where the soil pH is already in the correct range.  There is some evidence 
> that high organic matter and mycorrhizae may help to mitigate nitrogen 
> issues when soil
>   pH is higher than optimal, so that blueberries can get sufficient 
> nitrogen.  Unfortunately, this doesn't fix the iron deficiency that occurs 
> in many soils when pH is too high, so it can't be counted on as a way to 
> grow blueberries in higher than optimal soil pH at every site.
>   
> Of course everything I just said mostly applies to growing blueberries in 
> the ground.  If you grow in pots or bales of peat, there may be other 
> issues with the soil chemistry which affect how well blueberries perform.
>   
> Michael
>
> Michael Dossett
> Mission, British Columbia
> www.Mdossettphoto.com
> phainopepla@yahoo.com
>
> From: Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com>
> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [nafex] Was:Pine needle mulch, now: Blueberries in high pH
>
> Gypsum does not raise pH.
> I wouldn't worry about the microorganisms.
>
> Lee Reich, PhD
> Come visit my farmden at http://leereich.blogspot.com/
> http://leereich.com/
>
> Books by Lee Reich:
> A Northeast Gardener's Year
> The Pruning Book
> Weedless Gardening
> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
> Landscaping with Fruit
> Grow Fruit Naturally
>
> On Dec 20, 2012, at 9:47 AM, Andrew Hahn wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the amendment suggestions, I hadn't though of soybean meal as
>> being particularly good for acid loving plants and avoided Gypsum so as not
>> to rais the pH. Probably time to test the soil again to see what it needs.
>>
>> I had wondered why naturally occurring fungi would not be picked up and
>> couldn't find much about how common thy were. It is pretty likely my soil
>> has at least some, while I don't know of any ericaceous plants here in the
>> plains, 20 miles away the mountains have serval species.
>>
>> Very helpful, thank you.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 10:01 AM, <nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
>>
>>> An excellent, inexpensive, and organic (especially if non-GMO) source of N
>>> for blueberries and other acid-loving plants is soybean meal. Good for any
>>> plant, in fact.
>>>
>>> I did graduate research involving ericoid mycorrhiza and found no effect
>>> from inoculations. In fact it was hard to keep control plants from picking
>>> up inoculum as a general contaminant. The only exception would be places
>>> where blueberries or ericaceous plants are naturally absent and plants are
>>> raised without any source of contamination -- in Australia, for instance.
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> "The trouble with being poor is that it takes up all your time." - Willem
>> de Kooning
>> __________________
>> nafex mailing list
>> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>> aubscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
>> message archives
>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex
>> Google message archive search:
>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring]
>> nafex list mirror sites:
>> http://nafexlist.blogspot.com/
>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist
>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist
>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> __________________
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