North American Fruit Explorers mailing list at ibiblio

[Steven Covacci <filtertitle@aol.com>]

Hi Mr. Lehman and Scott:


I wasn't clear when I posted - I wasn't budding, I use whip & tongue 
technique only.  And Mr. Lehman, I received your email response: I completely 
agree - the problem must not be the covering, but the fact that my grafts 
were not done well.  Fortunately, a few more, it turns-out, are working-out, 
but many are lost.  Fortunately, I didn't use David's or Lucky's 
scion-material yet - and I know I can do a better job of (whip and tongue) 
grafting this time.


Thanks!
Steve


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Today's Topics:

   1. Bees Don't Like my Kiwis (Alan Haigh)
   2. Re: Bees Don't Like my Kiwis (John S)
   3. Re: Bees Don't Like my Kiwis (mIEKAL aND)
   4. Having problems with my grafts: buds drying-out after
      budding. (Steven Covacci)
   5. Re: [Bulk] Having problems with my grafts: buds drying-out
      after     budding. (sherwin)
   6. Re: Strawberry problems (Matt Demmon)
   7. Re: Bees Don't Like my Kiwis (Matt Demmon)
   8. Black Walnut Pollination (Sherlock Terry)
   9. Blooming order (Jim Fruth)
  10. Re: [Bulk] Having problems with my grafts: buds drying-out
      after budding. (Christopher Kennel)
  11. Re: Blooming order (Deb S)
  12. Having problems with my grafts: buds drying-out after     budd...
      (Jwlehman@aol.com)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 16:08:37 -0500
From: Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com>
Subject: [NAFEX] Bees Don't Like my Kiwis
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <BANLkTina-OQggQVg6vaKc4w-jM5a9A-UHA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

So much in the kiwi literature expounds on the necessity of nearby male
plants for reliable cropping, but I can't help but wonder if this isn't a
misunderstanding of the pollination issues with this fruit.


I have plenty of male argutas in the mix but watching closely the last
couple of years I notice that my various native pollinators are not very
interested in cold hardy kiwis (actinidia arguta).


The funny thing is that it's supposed to be pears that the buzzers avoid but
those blossoms are well tended in my orchard and others I manage.


I don't know if it's because there are more attractive flowers during  kiwis
bloom time or what- certainly the multi-flora roses are drawing huge crowds
as did the blackberry blossoms. I can't really eliminate the competition to
find out (although I'm at constant warfare with the multiflora)  but almost
everything else is getting some action.  The kiwis seem to be the
wallflowers that no one wants to dance with.


Of course, my heroic carpenter bees make a little effort, maybe in the
spirit of keeping the plain girl at the dance from being depressed, but I
suspect this will be another year of very light fruit set. It has been many
years since there's been a bumper crop.


I can prune the plants for tremendous floral display (and they are pretty
and very aromatic flowers, especially on the Rosanna that hangs over the
entrance of my house) and I can make the flowers easy to find, by pruning
away interfering shoots, but I can't make the bees come.   The good news is
that I?m not crazy about kiwis anyway and their main function is to hide
things on my property I don?t want to see.


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 19:52:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: John S <swim_at_svc@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Bees Don't Like my Kiwis
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <734027.29201.qm@web110009.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Alan,

I had a conversation with a local berry grower that also does kiwis a couple 
of 
years back.? He indicated it can take years for the local pollinators to 
discover and get used to kiwi.? He didn't have a reason, just said that it 
took 
them years after flowering before their vines started to get good production 
and 
that it was an issue with pollinators not hitting the kiwi.

Perhaps others here can help.? Kiwi is new to the area, only been seeing it 
grown in the last 10 years or so.

My Issai flowered a lot this year after skipping two years, so I'm hoping for 
a 
small crop this year.

John



--- On Wed, 6/8/11, Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com>
Subject: [NAFEX] Bees Don't Like my Kiwis
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2011, 5:08 PM

So much in the kiwi literature expounds on the necessity of nearby male
plants for reliable cropping, but I can't help but wonder if this isn't a
misunderstanding of the pollination issues with this fruit.


I have plenty of male argutas in the mix but watching closely the last
couple of years I notice that my various native pollinators are not very
interested in cold hardy kiwis (actinidia arguta).


The funny thing is that it's supposed to be pears that the buzzers avoid but
those blossoms are well tended in my orchard and others I manage.


I don't know if it's because there are more attractive flowers during? kiwis
bloom time or what- certainly the multi-flora roses are drawing huge crowds
as did the blackberry blossoms. I can't really eliminate the competition to
find out (although I'm at constant warfare with the multiflora)? but almost
everything else is getting some action.? The kiwis seem to be the
wallflowers that no one wants to dance with.


Of course, my heroic carpenter bees make a little effort, maybe in the
spirit of keeping the plain girl at the dance from being depressed, but I
suspect this will be another year of very light fruit set. It has been many
years since there's been a bumper crop.


I can prune the plants for tremendous floral display (and they are pretty
and very aromatic flowers, especially on the Rosanna that hangs over the
entrance of my house) and I can make the flowers easy to find, by pruning
away interfering shoots, but I can't make the bees come.???The good news is
that I?m not crazy about kiwis anyway and their main function is to hide
things on my property I don?t want to see.
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 22:13:33 -0500
From: mIEKAL aND <qazingulaza@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Bees Don't Like my Kiwis
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinFKL0--fYBGUWbKwp4XnRxGXCXAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

I hadn't considered this before.  It's certainly something worthy of
observation.  I have comfrey planted near all my various kiwi plantings &
the comfrey is always loaded with bumblebees.  I have yet to get heavy fruit
set but I always figured it was because I wasn't pruning them.

Also isn't wind pollination also viable?

~mIEKAL

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 9:52 PM, John S <swim_at_svc@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Alan,
>
> I had a conversation with a local berry grower that also does kiwis a
> couple of years back.  He indicated it can take years for the local
> pollinators to discover and get used to kiwi.  He didn't have a reason, just
> said that it took them years after flowering before their vines started to
> get good production and that it was an issue with pollinators not hitting
> the kiwi.
>
> Perhaps others here can help.  Kiwi is new to the area, only been seeing it
> grown in the last 10 years or so.
>
> My Issai flowered a lot this year after skipping two years, so I'm hoping
> for a small crop this year.
>
> John
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 6/8/11, Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com>
> Subject: [NAFEX] Bees Don't Like my Kiwis
> To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2011, 5:08 PM
>
> So much in the kiwi literature expounds on the necessity of nearby male
> plants for reliable cropping, but I can't help but wonder if this isn't a
> misunderstanding of the pollination issues with this fruit.
>
>
> I have plenty of male argutas in the mix but watching closely the last
> couple of years I notice that my various native pollinators are not very
> interested in cold hardy kiwis (actinidia arguta).
>
>
> The funny thing is that it's supposed to be pears that the buzzers avoid
> but
> those blossoms are well tended in my orchard and others I manage.
>
>
> I don't know if it's because there are more attractive flowers during
> kiwis
> bloom time or what- certainly the multi-flora roses are drawing huge crowds
> as did the blackberry blossoms. I can't really eliminate the competition to
> find out (although I'm at constant warfare with the multiflora)  but almost
> everything else is getting some action.  The kiwis seem to be the
> wallflowers that no one wants to dance with.
>
>
> Of course, my heroic carpenter bees make a little effort, maybe in the
> spirit of keeping the plain girl at the dance from being depressed, but I
> suspect this will be another year of very light fruit set. It has been many
> years since there's been a bumper crop.
>
>
> I can prune the plants for tremendous floral display (and they are pretty
> and very aromatic flowers, especially on the Rosanna that hangs over the
> entrance of my house) and I can make the flowers easy to find, by pruning
> away interfering shoots, but I can't make the bees come.   The good news is
> that I?m not crazy about kiwis anyway and their main function is to hide
> things on my property I don?t want to see.
>


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 23:50:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven Covacci <filtertitle@aol.com>
Subject: [NAFEX] Having problems with my grafts: buds drying-out after
        budding.
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <8CDF46F8923A976-F70-793ED@webmail-m171.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



Dear Group:


I'm new at grafting, and much else: I'm having problems with the results of 
my 
grafting weeks back..


The majority of the grafted scion-wood has now budded and, as expected, the 
buds 
break through the parafilm.  


However, this is what's happening.. Within a few days of breaking through, 
the 
buds blacken and dry and, then, die-off.  This is the case with most of the 
(persimmon) grafts.  However, in the case of two grafts (out of 12), unlike 
the 
others, the buds broke through the parafilm and then opened up fully and are 
doing great (at this time, at least) - maybe the wood was better, maybe the 
graft union is better, no idea?


I have two theories:


1. The buds are only dying because the graft-union was not sufficiently 
flushed 
so they are only budding because there is enough fluid and energy in the 
scion-material itself to bud and then die-out, because there is not enough 
connection to the under-stock.  Evidence that it is possible for the wood to 
bud 
on it's own, without being well-connected to the under-stock is that today, I 
found an 8" piece of persimmon scion-wood that was laying on the ground that 
was 
completely viable and budding - I tossed that piece to the ground 2 weeks ago!


2. That, in most cases, once the buds break through the parafilm, they will 
dehydrate in the heat - regardless of the fact that I made tin-foil hoods for 
them all to prevent the parafilm-wrapped scion-material from boiling in 
direct 
sunlight.  


If it is theory No.1, then not a problem.  I just need to learn how to do a 
better job of grafting; this will not be easier w/the new grafting tool I 
just 
got.  If it is theory No.2, I better quickly make homes for the grafts - 
maybe 
use the produce bags from the supermarket, for when the buds break through 
the 
parafilm.


What do you think is reason and what should I do?


Also, a second question is: my mulberry grafts (like last year) get mildew on 
them when wrapped in parafilm; what should I do - not cover them with 
parafilm?  
If not, then maybe I won't need hoods (made of tinfoil wrap; some use brown 
paper bags)?


If I can't get this right, this will be a waste of a ton of scion-material 
and 
another year delayed in doing this.  


Thanks,
Steve; NJ 6a/7b







------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 00:57:45 -0500
From: sherwin <sherwindu@att.net>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] [Bulk] Having problems with my grafts: buds
        drying-out after        budding.
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4DF060D9.4030607@att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Steven,

Hard to tell exactly how you are doing these bud grafts, but it almost 
seems like you are wrapping the
entire graft with parafilm.  I would wrap the parafilm around the bud 
stem leaving room for the growing
bud to grow out.  Seems like yours had to poke their way out, which 
could have affected their success.

Also, if you suspect the buds dried out, you can make a tent out of a 
plastic bag with a piece of damp
toweling and keep it on from grafting time to whenever the bud looks 
like it is succeeding.  The parafilm
wrapped tightly around the bud stem should keep it from drying out.  I 
would not put these grafts in
the sun until the bud is showing some green leaves.  Even then, I would 
moderate the amount of sun
they get.

You did not mention which rootstock and scion combinations you tried.  I 
find that some scions and
are more vigorous than others, and there could be rootstock 
incompatibilities.

                          Sherwin Dubren

On 6/8/2011 10:50 PM, Steven Covacci wrote:
>
> Dear Group:
>
>
> I'm new at grafting, and much else: I'm having problems with the results of 
> my 
grafting weeks back..
>
>
> The majority of the grafted scion-wood has now budded and, as expected, the 
buds break through the parafilm.
>
>
> However, this is what's happening.. Within a few days of breaking through, 
> the 
buds blacken and dry and, then, die-off.  This is the case with most of the 
(persimmon) grafts.  However, in the case of two grafts (out of 12), unlike 
the 
others, the buds broke through the parafilm and then opened up fully and are 
doing great (at this time, at least) - maybe the wood was better, maybe the 
graft union is better, no idea?
>
>
> I have two theories:
>
>
> 1. The buds are only dying because the graft-union was not sufficiently 
flushed so they are only budding because there is enough fluid and energy in 
the 
scion-material itself to bud and then die-out, because there is not enough 
connection to the under-stock.  Evidence that it is possible for the wood to 
bud 
on it's own, without being well-connected to the under-stock is that today, I 
found an 8" piece of persimmon scion-wood that was laying on the ground that 
was 
completely viable and budding - I tossed that piece to the ground 2 weeks ago!
>
>
> 2. That, in most cases, once the buds break through the parafilm, they will 
dehydrate in the heat - regardless of the fact that I made tin-foil hoods for 
them all to prevent the parafilm-wrapped scion-material from boiling in 
direct 
sunlight.
>
>
> If it is theory No.1, then not a problem.  I just need to learn how to do a 
better job of grafting; this will not be easier w/the new grafting tool I 
just 
got.  If it is theory No.2, I better quickly make homes for the grafts - 
maybe 
use the produce bags from the supermarket, for when the buds break through 
the 
parafilm.
>
>
> What do you think is reason and what should I do?
>
>
> Also, a second question is: my mulberry grafts (like last year) get mildew 
> on 
them when wrapped in parafilm; what should I do - not cover them with 
parafilm?  
If not, then maybe I won't need hoods (made of tinfoil wrap; some use brown 
paper bags)?
>
>
> If I can't get this right, this will be a waste of a ton of scion-material 
> and 
another year delayed in doing this.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Steve; NJ 6a/7b
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration or find out more 
> about 
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>



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 06:10:15 -0400
From: Matt Demmon <mdemmon@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Strawberry problems
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BANLkTik4JE_NKwnx0YKB9F-_6Ej9vtmkhg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I'm not sure actually. I have two cultivars, given to me by a friend. He had
lost the tags and couldn't remember. I seem to remember both cultivars
setting fruit, but sparsely. Or maybe only one set fruit. But I can't
remember. So maybe I have 2 females, and they are getting pollinated by: 1.
Wild strawberries in my yard 2. the many regular june-bearing or
ever-bearing strawberries I have or 3. the Alpine strawberries planted right
next to the musks. Or even by themselves, but whatever it is not
sufficiently.

They are more of a delicious curiousity at this point for me. Too small to
plant a lot of them and pick hoping to get many berries.

Although they spread rampantly and have filled up the entire bed under
currants and gooseberries that they are in, as well as several feet of lawn.

-matt
z5 se MI

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 9:18 PM, Melissa Kacalanos <mijwiz@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Matt,
>
> Do you have male plants too, or just females? I planted some of each last
> year, and this year, just about every flower on the females set fruit. There
> are at least as many fruit per plant as my regular strawberries. I can't
> wait to taste them.
>
> Melissa
>
> --- On Tue, 6/7/11, Matt Demmon <mdemmon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Matt Demmon <mdemmon@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Strawberry problems
> > To: "North American Fruit Explorers" <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Date: Tuesday, June 7, 2011, 6:33 PM
> > Sounds like an issue I've had with
> > musk strawberries, which are not
> > self-fruitful. Sometimes they look like they're going to
> > make berries, but
> > it just falls off before starting to get some size. They
> > always make way
> > more flowers than berries. But some years, and now that I
> > have a couple
> > varieties, I get a decent amount of berries. But nothing
> > like regular
> > strawberries.
> >
> > -matt
> > z5 se MI
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 2:26 AM, Michael Bathrick <bathrick@berkshire.net
> >wrote:
> >
> > > Please forgive a beginner's question.
> > >
> > > I received some strawberries from the NCGR at
> > Corvallis.  The plant
> > > itself can't be more healthy, the leaves are giant, it
> > flowers
> > > profusely.  The problem is when the fruit sets
> > and reach 1/8th inch,
> > > they turn brown and the stalk withers.  I have
> > planted in both MA and in
> > > PA and have the same problem in both places.  Any
> > ideas what it might
> > > be?  I have had the same issues in wet and dry
> > conditions, hot and cool
> > > weather.  I haven't noticed any bugs.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > __________________
> > > nafex mailing list
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> > >
> > __________________
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> __________________
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 06:16:06 -0400
From: Matt Demmon <mdemmon@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Bees Don't Like my Kiwis
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimyNOKCXEW8zPUhUdKWz=8k3u+Jbw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

This would make sense to me, because kiwi is in it's own family, and none of
the members of this family are native to the U.S. So the flowers may be
quite different than what the native bees are used to. They may not
recognize it as food until they try. And some may never like it. But I would
imagine generalist pollinators may get the hang of it eventually.

Other plants that aren't native to this continent used for fruit have close
relatives that are native here, or may just have more attractive flowers.
Honeyberry, goumi, sea buckthorn, pear, peach, apricot, etc all have close
relatives.

It would interesting if anyone knows what pollinates Actindia in it's native
habitat.

-matt
z5 se MI

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 10:52 PM, John S <swim_at_svc@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Alan,
>
> I had a conversation with a local berry grower that also does kiwis a
> couple of years back.  He indicated it can take years for the local
> pollinators to discover and get used to kiwi.  He didn't have a reason, just
> said that it took them years after flowering before their vines started to
> get good production and that it was an issue with pollinators not hitting
> the kiwi.
>
> Perhaps others here can help.  Kiwi is new to the area, only been seeing it
> grown in the last 10 years or so.
>
> My Issai flowered a lot this year after skipping two years, so I'm hoping
> for a small crop this year.
>
> John
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 6/8/11, Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com>
> Subject: [NAFEX] Bees Don't Like my Kiwis
> To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2011, 5:08 PM
>
> So much in the kiwi literature expounds on the necessity of nearby male
> plants for reliable cropping, but I can't help but wonder if this isn't a
> misunderstanding of the pollination issues with this fruit.
>
>
> I have plenty of male argutas in the mix but watching closely the last
> couple of years I notice that my various native pollinators are not very
> interested in cold hardy kiwis (actinidia arguta).
>
>
> The funny thing is that it's supposed to be pears that the buzzers avoid
> but
> those blossoms are well tended in my orchard and others I manage.
>
>
> I don't know if it's because there are more attractive flowers during
> kiwis
> bloom time or what- certainly the multi-flora roses are drawing huge crowds
> as did the blackberry blossoms. I can't really eliminate the competition to
> find out (although I'm at constant warfare with the multiflora)  but almost
> everything else is getting some action.  The kiwis seem to be the
> wallflowers that no one wants to dance with.
>
>
> Of course, my heroic carpenter bees make a little effort, maybe in the
> spirit of keeping the plain girl at the dance from being depressed, but I
> suspect this will be another year of very light fruit set. It has been many
> years since there's been a bumper crop.
>
>
> I can prune the plants for tremendous floral display (and they are pretty
> and very aromatic flowers, especially on the Rosanna that hangs over the
> entrance of my house) and I can make the flowers easy to find, by pruning
> away interfering shoots, but I can't make the bees come.   The good news is
> that I?m not crazy about kiwis anyway and their main function is to hide
> things on my property I don?t want to see.
> __________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration or find out more
> about the list here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
> NAFEX web site: http://www.nafex.org/
> __________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration or find out more
> about the list here:
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> NAFEX web site: http://www.nafex.org/
>


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 08:33:06 -0400
From: Sherlock Terry <sherlocksmith@gmail.com>
Subject: [NAFEX] Black Walnut Pollination
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=KKvst2R9j7=M8oomj9oP5wkx4jw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

While we're on the topic of pollination, some of the plants near my kiwis
(flowering for the first time this year) are black walnut trees. I have
three trees planted about 25' apart that I think are at least 25 years old
(I've lived in the spot 4 years), but they don't set many nuts. For the past
two years I've tried to pay attention in the spring and I've noticed lots of
male flowers on one tree but not on the other two. I can't find the female
flowers to save my life, but I imagine they are on the flowering tree. From
what I understand black walnuts are not self fertile, so that could explain
why I only get 30 or so nuts a year from a healthy 20' tree. I've also read
that walnuts don't produce regularly, so I'm wondering if I am between mast
years. Is it possible that the other two trees aren't old enough to flower,
or that the flower buds are killed by the winter cold, or that flowering is
tied to ph...Does anyone have any guesses?

Thanks.
-Sherlock
Z4 VT Hail and damaging winds in the forecast today!


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 08:03:57 -0500
From: "Jim Fruth" <jimfruth@charter.net>
Subject: [NAFEX] Blooming order
To: "NAFEX" <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <F9C1DCA1DE81464E8100FEDFED88ECF4@ibma20plaptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
        reply-type=original

    In a normal year, around the end of June, my red raspberries bloom, 
closely followed by the black raspberries.  Then, in a few weeks, the 
blackberries begin blooming.  This year, however, the blackberries have 
started blooming with the raspberries appearing to be on schedule.  Anyone 
care to guess what might cause the blackberries to bloom early?

Jim Fruth
Brambleberry Fruit Farm
4002 Davis Street
Pequot Lakes, MN  56472
1-218-831-7018 (My Cell) 



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 07:34:21 -0600
From: Christopher Kennel <ckennel@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] [Bulk] Having problems with my grafts: buds
        drying-out after budding.
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=W=smePgThodnoPk4iWduR9RCV6w@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I'm not a persimmon grafter, so feel free to disregard what I'm about to
write if there are special, persimmon-specific grafting techniques.

It sounds like you're working with dormant scion material.  If this is the
case, then I'd try bark grafting.  It's an easy technique, and I believe Joe
Real (google his tutorials on the technique if you're new to it) has used it
with great success for persimmons.  If your problem was the bud running out
of reserves before the callouses adequately formed, perhaps using a scion
stick would provide additional reserves.  You can still use techniques to
shade or keep the scion moist if necessary, but on stone and pome fruits I
haven't found this to be necessary.

For budding, I use the current season's (non-dormant) growth, and I've had
better results later in the summer when buds are more mature.  Often these
buds remain dormant for the remainder of the summer and then grow out the
following year.  It is possible to force the buds out of dormancy if you bud
in the earlier part of the summer by partially cutting the understock and
bending it over above the bud.

All the best,
Chris Kennel
Denver, CO
zone 5

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 11:57 PM, sherwin <sherwindu@att.net> wrote:

> Steven,
>
> Hard to tell exactly how you are doing these bud grafts, but it almost
> seems like you are wrapping the
> entire graft with parafilm.  I would wrap the parafilm around the bud
> stem leaving room for the growing
> bud to grow out.  Seems like yours had to poke their way out, which
> could have affected their success.
>
> Also, if you suspect the buds dried out, you can make a tent out of a
> plastic bag with a piece of damp
> toweling and keep it on from grafting time to whenever the bud looks
> like it is succeeding.  The parafilm
> wrapped tightly around the bud stem should keep it from drying out.  I
> would not put these grafts in
> the sun until the bud is showing some green leaves.  Even then, I would
> moderate the amount of sun
> they get.
>
> You did not mention which rootstock and scion combinations you tried.  I
> find that some scions and
> are more vigorous than others, and there could be rootstock
> incompatibilities.
>
>                          Sherwin Dubren
>
> On 6/8/2011 10:50 PM, Steven Covacci wrote:
> >
> > Dear Group:
> >
> >
> > I'm new at grafting, and much else: I'm having problems with the results
> of my grafting weeks back..
> >
> >
> > The majority of the grafted scion-wood has now budded and, as expected,
> the buds break through the parafilm.
> >
> >
> > However, this is what's happening.. Within a few days of breaking
> through, the buds blacken and dry and, then, die-off.  This is the case with
> most of the (persimmon) grafts.  However, in the case of two grafts (out of
> 12), unlike the others, the buds broke through the parafilm and then opened
> up fully and are doing great (at this time, at least) - maybe the wood was
> better, maybe the graft union is better, no idea?
> >
> >
> > I have two theories:
> >
> >
> > 1. The buds are only dying because the graft-union was not sufficiently
> flushed so they are only budding because there is enough fluid and energy in
> the scion-material itself to bud and then die-out, because there is not
> enough connection to the under-stock.  Evidence that it is possible for the
> wood to bud on it's own, without being well-connected to the under-stock is
> that today, I found an 8" piece of persimmon scion-wood that was laying on
> the ground that was completely viable and budding - I tossed that piece to
> the ground 2 weeks ago!
> >
> >
> > 2. That, in most cases, once the buds break through the parafilm, they
> will dehydrate in the heat - regardless of the fact that I made tin-foil
> hoods for them all to prevent the parafilm-wrapped scion-material from
> boiling in direct sunlight.
> >
> >
> > If it is theory No.1, then not a problem.  I just need to learn how to do
> a better job of grafting; this will not be easier w/the new grafting tool I
> just got.  If it is theory No.2, I better quickly make homes for the grafts
> - maybe use the produce bags from the supermarket, for when the buds break
> through the parafilm.
> >
> >
> > What do you think is reason and what should I do?
> >
> >
> > Also, a second question is: my mulberry grafts (like last year) get
> mildew on them when wrapped in parafilm; what should I do - not cover them
> with parafilm?  If not, then maybe I won't need hoods (made of tinfoil wrap;
> some use brown paper bags)?
> >
> >
> > If I can't get this right, this will be a waste of a ton of
> scion-material and another year delayed in doing this.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steve; NJ 6a/7b
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________
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> >
>
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------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 09:53:00 -0400
From: Deb S <debs913@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Blooming order
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=yihBk1bVOcF+7RQkrfbpBUrrwdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Heat?  Haven't you folks been abnormally warm there this spring?

On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Jim Fruth <jimfruth@charter.net> wrote:

>    In a normal year, around the end of June, my red raspberries bloom,
> closely followed by the black raspberries.  Then, in a few weeks, the
> blackberries begin blooming.  This year, however, the blackberries have
> started blooming with the raspberries appearing to be on schedule.  Anyone
> care to guess what might cause the blackberries to bloom early?
>
> Jim Fruth
> Brambleberry Fruit Farm
> 4002 Davis Street
> Pequot Lakes, MN  56472
> 1-218-831-7018 (My Cell)
>
> __________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration or find out more
> about the list here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
> NAFEX web site: http://www.nafex.org/
>


------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 10:52:12 EDT
From: Jwlehman@aol.com
Subject: [NAFEX] Having problems with my grafts: buds drying-out after
        budd...
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <2c06d.1a36cc7c.3b22381c@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In a message dated 6/9/2011 9:34:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ckennel@gmail.com writes:

> It sounds like you're working with dormant scion material.  If this is 
> the
> case, then I'd try bark grafting.  It's an easy technique, and I believe 
> Joe
> Real (google his tutorials on the technique if you're new to it) has used 
> it
> with great success for persimmons.  If your problem was the bud running 
> out
> of reserves before the callouses adequately formed, perhaps using a scion
> stick would provide additional reserves.  You can still use techniques to
> shade or keep the scion moist if necessary, but on stone and pome fruits I
> haven't found this to be necessary.    

Hi Steve,

We talked by phone and I don't remember why you are spring budding.  My 
advise is as Chris wrote use grafting where the graft material has reserves. 
Bark, splice, whip & tongue work wonderfully. I just checked an orchard I 
grafted three years ago using both bark & splice (using grafting machine, not 
omega) and had 82% success. And one that failed I had made a note, "bad fit." 
When you can get that kind of success why fool around with bud grafting?  It 
is my opinion bud grafting works better in the fall using current years 
mature buds.  

The Parafilm shouldn't be impeding the buds development. My guess is the 
bud is dying before pushing through. Once I wrapped a splice graft with para 
then wrapped with aluminum, not just a shield. The bud pushed through the 
para and aluminum.  See picture. 



Jerry
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