North American Fruit Explorers mailing list at ibiblio

[Jwlehman@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/3/2008 11:26:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ehills7408@wowway.com writes:

> Either way, were I you I would want to get the varieties on an american persimmon rootstock (rather than the kaki or lotus) as I have ready reports that the other two rootstocks are less hardy. 
 

Here is my experience with lotus. Started them from seed, maybe a half dozen. Every winter they freeze to the ground and then re-grow. Maybe one in 5 years they survived the winter. I would not recommend using lotus as an understock in zones 5 and lower. The exception might be if the graft is below the ground line so the lotus isn't exposed.  

It is also my observation that kaki isn't much, if any, hardier than lotus.  Several years ago I planted and had about 125 Jiro and 125 Saijo seedlings. These seeds were personally collected from the Wolfskill Research Orchard near Davis, CA. Dr. K. Ryugo managed the persimmon research section. In this orchard were virginiana males. Virginiana was used for the understock. On some, the grafts failed and the understock survived and some were male. The Saijo tree from which my seeds were collected had a large virginiana male limb intertwined with the Saijo limbs. My goal was looking for and hoping for naturally occurring kaki x virginiana hybrids. The other goal of the experiment was looking for a few slightly more winter hardy specimens to use for breeding. That experiment started about 15 years ago. Today none of the seedlings remain. Not one! The last ones failed last spring. Every winter they also froze to the ground then came back up from the root system. They grew about 3 and 4 feet then froze to the ground again. They likewise survived maybe once every 5 winters. Over time they died out one by one.   

Cliff England has kakis in Kentucky that survive there, zone 6. He supplied scion wood of his more hardy Korean varieties which I grafted here. By the end of the second winter they also froze out. 

It is my firm conviction that no kaki will survive many years in zones 5 and lower. NONE!!! There may be a few exceptions where planted in a microclimate such as protected near a large building. Or in a micro climate area such as the Ohio River Valley area in Evansville, IN. Maybe Cincinnati Ohio also. 

Remember, the nurseries that claim zone 5 hardy kakis are selling trees.  Ask them to guarantee their tree for 10 years with a money back guarantee. If they will give you that guarantee in writing go for it. 

I wish Scott Hills the best of luck with his Ichi Ke Kei Jiro in Michigan. I did have a 3 year Great Wall fruit here one year which was on the South side of the house.  But one night at -10F in the following January ended that.   

Jerry Lehman, zone 5b (Old zone mapping) 
7780 Persimmon St.
Terre Haute, IN 47802-4994


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