Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

msar-riders - Re: [MSAR] Fwd: Search for Lauren Spierer--off list

msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Mounted search and rescue

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: Beatrice Sharp <ibeathere@yahoo.com>
  • To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [MSAR] Fwd: Search for Lauren Spierer--off list
  • Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:13:07 -0000

Hello, I understand what you are saying about grid searches being a waste of time, but that would only be in the beginning of a search.
The beginning of any search should be with a hasty team of the best of the best whether it be with dogs,horses,man trackers.
I would prefer that the hasty team be the best man trackers about 2 to 4 with police radios. Then the k-9,(one), that can track contaminated trails,
which would have to be the best, preferably a blood hound. The the mounted team again 4-6 riders with man tracking abilities.
All the above should be under a st- ricked assignment protocol. Keeping track of areas already searched. This should happen in the first 24 hours.
When and if noting is found the premier should be widened at least 5 miles larger. Again using the same regimen noted.
Areas already searched can then be combed by more volunteers trained to do a proper grid search with a team leader that is certified.
Searches are not the time to argue about who is the best at what they do, you should know all this before everyone gets there.
The best heroes at a search is the one who finds the victim search styles really doesn't matter.
I have been at searches and have been surprised when someone who isn't even part of the search finds the victim. It is always a
good search then.
I was fortunate to have trained with the best of the best with the San Bernardino County Sheriffs Department. They teach how to
except and respect all that want to help and believe me you will need everyone, when the chips are down. I hope you respond to my
Email. I would like to meet you sometime.
Beatrice Sharp
Sharp County Search and Rescue


From: Dick L Sweet <dsweet.fsm@voyager.net>
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 6:46 AM
Subject: [MSAR] Fwd: Search for Lauren Spierer--off list



Sent from my iPhone

Begin forwarded message:

From: Dick L Sweet <dsweet.fsm@voyager.net>
Date: June 18, 2011 9:36:26 AM EDT
To: IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN <ilichten1@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Search for Lauren Spierer--off list

One last thing COO , I m sure you feed on titles, next time We Need a self selling expert to do a seminar we will call you. When we need nonself agrandizing experienced hoofs on the ground, we won t.
How did you become so ful of yourself?
And WOW who was timing you when you made your comparision searches? How many ended up in "finds"?
Keep up your good work and pls take a course in how to win through encouragement vs selfindulgent criticism.
CEO
COO
Pres
CFO
Husband
Father
Grandfather
Elder
Consultant
Christian
Servant to Him

Empressed yet?
Seriously, I deal with "you" on a daily basis

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 17, 2011, at 11:49 PM, "IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN" <ilichten1@verizon.net> wrote:

I have been in SAR since 1979 and MSAR since 1986. I am a state certified SAR Management instructor, a federally certified ICS/NIMS and safety instructor and have probably run more jobs than you have. And our searches were for live people, not bodies.
We stopped grid searching before 1984 when discriminating air scent dogs became available and we developed the 3 person task group. We also instituted using trackers
whenever possible. The idea is to minimize the use of manpower. Between air scent dogs and horses I can search any area to an 80% POD faster and with less disruption of the terrain than any grid team can. I can also do it with about one tenth the manpower, especially important in a real search for a live person during the day during the week with limited volunteer manpower. Using skilled manpower, whether volunteer firefighters, career cops, or citizens to grid search is a waste of resources and should be reserved for body recovery in shallow still water.
What you have wrong is that you don’t want to learn about the subject and do it better. You obviously didn’t read the material on our website and you also don’t participate in any national learning experiences. By the way, I am a founding member of the ASTM Committee on Search and Rescue (F32) a member of the Mounted SAR Task Force, also F30, EMS ; and E31 Patient Records. I helped found the PA State Search and Rescue Council and was its first secretary and was president for a term. I have written peer reviewed papers on MSAR and am considered one of the most knowledgeable persons in the field having experienced the transitions from
grid to dog and to mounted air scenting as well as introducing the behavioral model into this area.
A waste is using a resource on something that doesn’t work or doesn’t work as well as an alternative. Look at the management guidelines and the manpower needed to do grid search. Then multiply that by 3 because it takes a minimum of 3 passes, each with a different crew, to make 80% with a trained crew. Just read the book and learn. You have to keep track of all those people so you don’t lose one of them. And you have to feed them, transport them to the search start point and from the end point, provide medical support for them, insure them, and park their cars.
You are wasting your horse’s good senses if you think all he is good for is to carry you around. You are not doing mounted search, you on a trail ride. You need to see tracks and clues, you need to read your horse’s reactions to the environment, and you need to get your brain working. You are not mounted cops doing crowd control,
you are searching for a live person who will soon be dead if you don’t find them. And we don’t risk live searchers for dead bodies, either.
Irv Lichtenstein
Chief of Operations
SE PA SAR

From: Dick L Sweet [mailto:dsweet.fsm@voyager.net]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 9:47 PM
To: IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Search for Lauren Spierer--off list
Ok
The military, state police and sherrif's depts have it all wrong. MSAR isn't a crime forensic's investagative unit. We go where others can t where others won t and with a point of vision atop a mount.
So, your point would be ? And have you been in a MSAR event? And to call anything a "waste" makes you ignorant or arrogant or both.
Have a good evening

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 17, 2011, at 5:28 PM, "IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN" <ilichten1@verizon.net> wrote:
Grid searching is a waste of manpower. All it does is tear up the terrain so all tracks and clues are destroyed. The key to searching is efficiency, minimum man-hours used to cover maximum terrain. What you have suggested below is merely the start of administration. If you are going to search use the resources available to their best advantage. Depending on why this student went missing is very important in modeling her behavior and how to search for her. And supply references to expand the knowledge base. See www.sepasar.net and the archives at MASAR.
Irv Lichtenstein
SE PA SAR

From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sweet
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 4:46 PM
To: Yvette Rollins ; Mounted search and rescue
Cc: Mounted search and rescue
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Search for Lauren Spierer
Prepare grid maps hand out to all MSAR s
Color strip them based on teams
Break groups into equal numbered teams
Ask ea grp to assign a grp leader
Meet breifly w ea leader
Be specific about times and regrp mtgs
If lots of teams have 1 st and 2nd wave
Same areas
Have leaders exchange phone # or use w talkies
That will give some control and accountability
Last,ask any law enforcement to encourage all msar to report to one staging area

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 17, 2011, at 3:17 PM, Yvette Rollins <hoosierhorsemen@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hello All,
We have been searching in the Bloomington area for Lauren Spierer, missing IU student. So far not successful. We have another search scheduled for tomorrow. Saturday morning June 18th.
Question: We have a lot of horseback riders joining in the search that have no experience. What is the best advice you can give me for preparing these people for the search. We had a search on Tuesday and fortunately only 19 riders showed up and it was easy to work in teams but we had one team that went off like they were going to the races. I tried to emphasis caution and care for the horses as well as the riders and preserving the scene but I do think in their excitement that did not happen.
Yvette
‘Tread Lightly upon the Land and Leave No Trace!’
From: Karen Nesbitt <spanishequines@yahoo.com>
To: MSAR <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>; Mounted search and rescue in Illinois USA. <msar-il@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 8:22 PM
Subject: [MSAR] TICKS and vermine


We seem to be suffering a "plaque" of sorts in ticks this season. Seems for the last two weeks or better there has not been a day where I have not had to pick one or two ticks a day off my person.. So far the fleas have been laying low, while ants have been looking for higher ground. Due to the amount of rain, the ponding of water and flooding in many areas, the tall grass and now the high heat and humidity, it is perfect weather for them...
It is also perfect snake weather. We have spotted some rather large snakes in our area including in the barn and woodland and it is egg laying time for most snake specie here.
Mosquitos and flies are also going to be bad especailly in areas that are full of manure and loaded with wet filth.
Where there is filth, and manure there are also mice and rats
KarenNesbitt - VMSAR - Iroquis County - Illinois
*************NOTICE*****************
The info rmation contained in this transmission is intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain info rmation that is privileged, confidential, and/or protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, do not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication.If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately reply to the sender and then delete it. Thank you for your compliance.
Please also do not forward without my permission. Thank you. 1/1/11>
_______________________________________________ MSAR-Riders mailing listMSAR-Riders@lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/msar-riders
_______________________________________________
MSAR-Riders mailing list
MSAR-Riders@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/msar-riders
_______________________________________________
MSAR-Riders mailing list
MSAR-Riders@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/msar-riders
<PH0907SearchAndRescue.pdf>

_______________________________________________
MSAR-Riders mailing list
MSAR-Riders@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/msar-riders





Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page