Mounted search and rescue

[Karen Nesbitt <spanishequines@yahoo.com>]

In Response to:

 

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:08:36 -0700
From: "Hal Sikes" <halsikes@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Lippizans
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
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Your instructor shorted his\her statement as to them being "circus" and not "true dressage" ----- and your "true dressage" horses CAN'T do what those "circus" horses CAN do, which is why and how they were given the very unflattering label of being "circus" horses.  Kinda like, If you can't do it, then criticize and put down those that can.  Can they do Dressage too?  You Betchum Red Ryder.

The movements the Lippizans and Andelusians are able to perform are due to their tremendous natural athletic abilities, and those awe inspiring feats were developed and deployed for their original use as War Horses.  Each movement had either an offensive or defensive purpose.  The 'airs above the ground" Karen refers to was to defend against (or attack) soldiers approaching the rider from the rear.  The crouched back position with their front raised at a 45 degree angle was to protect the rider from incoming arrows as the horse worn a leather breast plate. 

As to the Stallions being in portable stalls your Gelding would knock down, that speaks directly to their character and training.  Name me another breed where you can have 20 or more Stallions on the same hitching post without major problems.

Hal Sikes

 

------>>>>>>

 Well, Hal, I can name you a breed that you could tie more than one stallion to the same hitching post... Paso Fino for one.  Long as its trained well and well bred.  Infact, I have seen mares tied with the stallions on the same post.

 

When we were showing we showed mares with stallions and so all I can say is that first of all, yes, a considerable amount has to do with natural disposition, but equally a greater amount has to do with the training.

 

We owned close to 8 stallions at one time and had them in one barn with not so great stalls and all the boys behaved quite well with the exception of one magnificent show stallion we had on baord that was a menace due to his dare I say abuse in training.  The owner informed me they could not mount him and had to tie him to a hitching post then get on.  I asked them if they did not mind, I would be happy to work with him.  He was not the best mannered animal for breeding either.  But he had some of the blood we liked and well, what can I say.

 

I had him for one training session... I worked with him for about an hour and all I did was get up and down and made him stand without a post as I doubled his head bad and gradually let up until he would mount looking straight ahead and without a problem.  I was afraid to hitch him to a post to mount as I thought that feat alone was rather dangerous in having to have to then untie him from being in the saddle.

 

I used to show my Pasos on the parade of breeds at expos and ride along side stallions with my mares in parades.  Rode in parades with stallions on my side and flank, carrying flags etc.

 

Our current stallion is now twenty and for almost the last 10 years he has not worn a halter and will go with me to his stall or pen or walk with me in the pasture without same and is a real joy to be with.  I groom him untied and when breeding he nearly asks us for the mares hoof in marriage before he mounts them.  He will stand there and basically until we say ok, she is yours, he will not have his way until allowed.  And of course when we have pasture bred and have let the stallion run with the mares and foals and the foals love their daddy.  Once he has all the mares breed, he is just another horse and so many times we have been asked is that "gelding" for sale?  (Absolutely not and HE AINT NO GELDING!)  He is trained to ride and drive and he is just a big puppy.  Just a joy of an animal.

 

We have an 8 year old filly of his that still baby chomps him.  Of course now we do not let him take his liberties as we are not breeding and do not want any unwanted foals as we fully know that he would also take a liberty if left alone for any time in the pasture with them but if we are certain the mare is not in heat, there is no reason he cannot go out and play.  He can go out with his mother anytime now who is beyond breeding at here age of nearly 30 and they eat side by side without a care.  He is ok to turn out with the jackass, but him and the minigelding do not get along at all.  The mini does not like him and I have seen the mini grab his halter when he was wearing one and drop the big boy to his knees!

 

We also keep him in a pen that is made of round pen panels and the whole herd can socialize all the time.  Him on one side, them on the other.  The pen is adequate and if anyone damages it it is more often a kick from a mare.

 

I will beg to differ on  that if you allow horses to run in a herd they will be more social.  Social to what degree?....another horse or a human?  There is a difference in manners.  Much depends on the herd or the pasture mate as many times we seen people trying to keep a few horses in the same pen together and all they do is fight and bust fences.  But we have seen others that have no problems.  And or a stallion is stall bound and is not socialble with other riders.   Socialization in the herd is a matter of hiarchy.  Socialization as far as people and the horse are concerned is a total different matter.  But yes, you as the human do play a role in that animals hiarchy.  And you are responsible for breaking up the fights and the unsocialble or unacceptable behavior the horses have while with themselves.  And horses at play can get brutal.  In the eye of the horse, you are just another member of their herd.  Now do you are you dominant or submissive to them?  Being dominant does not require you assume the postion to beat them and win.  Dominance can be acheived with the utmost of kindness.

 

You are your own worst enemy when you leave two or more animals together that will constantly fight and be destructiove.  That is a rather ignorant thing to do to leave them  continueally together to perpetuate the undesirable behavior and let them go relentlessy for days, weeks and months on end.  You can end up with far more rank animals that are consistanly then wanting to kick and bite and scrap.  They can be sour animals to train and ride and beating them into submission can make them more rank.  They get snipey and can  turn their aggressions on you. 

 

Stallions for the most part if left in a herd where there would be no people to monitor them ,only one would take the herd as his herem.  The rest of the boys would be run off to form bachelor herds until they located mares of their own to take on as there herams and would eventually run the other stallions off or sincerely run them to the back of the pasture and not allow the near his mares at breeding time.  This is a matter of survival and natural selection and gene appropriation in the wild.  It prevents to much of the inbreeding.  Many stallions will not even look to their own daughthers to breed in a wild situation, however, libido does strange things to the boys in many situations.  And geldings are still boys and will still act male even when cut.  For that matter a mare can act male as well.  It is truly also a matter of balance in hormone.

 

Personally, if I had my druthers I would much prefer to ride stallions than mares.  Mares in heat can be crantankerous snots in any bred and be dangerous in their own right.  But I reiterate, training has much to do with it as does genes.

 

Geldings or bachelor stallions in a herd together will also form a hiarchy.  It is just the nature of the beast. 

 

What we found it is not so much the stallion that is the leader of a herd in a mixed band, it is always a higher ranking mare.  Age and sex can  have nothing to do with the hiarchy.  What reigns in a herd is its natural ability to survive.  It is the survival of the fittest, however, young animals will gaurd older more frail animals in the herd just as a mare gaurds her babies.  And when it gets down to survival.. it is often every horse, foal mare, or stallion for themselves.  And then they usually run like hell. 

 

In a stampede, it is often the leading mare (unless the herd is comprised of soley bachelors) that is in the rear of the herd driving the herd to what that individual right or wrong perceives as safety.  In a herd of numbers, each horse will position themselves stratigically for lookouts etc.  Usually one animal is on gaurd constantly more vigile on looking out while the rest are content to eat or while foals play.  But its flight or fight not fight or flight.  They opt to run from their enemies.

 

As for giving the Lipazzers a topic a rest, hmmm... While General Patton did rescue them it was not the first time the herd was in dyer straights.  Napoleon also rescued the steeds from destruction at another point earlier in history.  Pattons original tactic was to rescue the prisoners he learned that were also housed with the horses at that time.  The horses actually were secondary in the goal.  But he did have a passion for the animals.

 

As for the title "circus" horse, hmmm that was mostly applied to the Andalusions which made up a large bloodline of the Lipazzans and well, dont know about you, but I would not mind having a well trained circus horse in my barn.  Would not bother me a bit.  Beats the heck out of a crazy horse tearing down fences or kicking the heQQ out of trailers and otherwise doing stupid or rank things.  I have a few Paso mares I would not mind to cross with those beautiful "circus" Andulusions.  Here tell the sport horse people love them and the dressage people are finding them super mounts and also versitile for trail as well.

 

But I gotta say this, versatility with any horsebreed is up to the rider in how far he/she can take it.

 

So anyway, Hal, I cant say either me or my husband has had to repair a fence in years due to our little spanish horses at our farm from doing stupid.  But I can say I have had to repair them more from lightning hits or trees landing on them more often than the animals doing damage here.

 

And Hal, that little stallion I had for sale, that you were interested in a few years back, well he went up to a gal in Canada!  Last gelding I sold was back in the 70's and was it was an appaloosa.  One before that was a cutter QH that was worthless as a stallion, but a fabulous mount that was extremely versatile.  Too bad the trotters were just bad for my knees!   To this date we have never sold a gelded Paso fino and all of our boys have left the farm whole.  If they are geldings now, that was the buyers choice and because the buyers wanted trail horses to which stallions are not allowed on public trails and why they were gelded.  So riding a stallion of any breed for MSAR would not be appropriate due to the so called liabilities.

 

As for those HIGH SCHOOL trainined Lipazzans, that training takes YEARS.  The perfection in  ie: the Airs above the ground does not happen in a short time.  The horses are nearly a decade old or better some of them before they are finished in their training.

 

As for a "true dressage" horse...hmmm isn't the term DRESSAGE just another word for TRAINING?  Circus or not...  And well, how about those circus horses, dont they performn great at liberty!  Just a fancy method of another "cowboy" slapping leather, but done more refined.  And dont forget, the Andalusions were what started the QH's.  It was the BULLRING HERITAGE OF THE ANDALUSION that got the QH breed founded.  But most of the QH's lost any of the spanish gaits of any spanish Jennet that was also in their megar beginning.  It was the Spanish Andalusions tenacity in the bullrings of Spain that put the COW in any QH. AND IN SPAIN they used the Andalusions to place a rose on the bulls head in the fight ring because they could leap and move and get out of the way  before getting gored and had the granduer of cowsense in doing it.  BUT THEN DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, ITS THEIR HISTORY AND HERITAGE.  It was not just the battlefield of those days or today it was their bullring to which we do not see that kind of COWBOYING in this country.  You want to cut a mean cow, I think Spain has the best of the bad bulls and I dont beleive there are any American QH's playing games in that arena. 

 

May you always ride a good horse.  ;)

        Karen