Thank you Laurie, I hope my information will help you and others. Yours is excellent info matter too! And do keep us all posted on the bear bell!
You and your horse on the second go with the bear probably were both reacting in anticipation. You as the rider had a bad previous experience and your horse knowing this from that same experience probably acted on it the same. You are very fortuneate to have a GREAT mount that will take care of you! That is what we all want. Reliable trusting partners.
Personally I have no use for trainers that are abusive to their animals or use their equipment in cruel manners. These type of trainers/riders are worthless and they create trouble for the good that abound. They are the type of people too that take advantage of nieve people as well. I find too many bad trainers cowboying and bullying and unnecessarily training the animals to fear and using equipment they themselves do not understand. I personally like to keep my gear simple, non abusive and kind. My preference is a bosal. I train much using a peice of krinkle paper, a lariet, halter and by praise vs treats as a reward. Treat training to me, can get to be a nuisance. It is nothing but bribery. I don't mind a horse searching me in love and respect, but lookiing for a constant treat is nothing but appetite, being a pest and not learning.
There is little if any reason to whipbeat a horse, there is no reason for tying heads to tails to supple them and I can think of a mirad of other things in my book that I reject as sp called good training when there are far much better, kinder and simpler ways.
I can only think of one reason one might have to beat a horse. And that might only be if you have two horses acting in a brawl against each other and you need to break up their party and for your safety to do it and to use a long whip. Otherwise throw the whip away. The only other purpose I can see using a whip is for an extension of your hand to give you safety in handling youngstock, but not to BEAT, only to gently touch. Whipping them to make them run harder is fear training and that is a no go in my book.
Natural disposition is everything. Like your mare and her great manners, we have a stallion that is a lamb too! I don't ride our stallion anymore, however he is the PERFECT gentleman that is NATURAL trained respondent to voice and whistle, bodylanguaged trained and runs at large in the pasture here, no halter. He is such the gentleman during breeding season he understands that WE give permission to him to go ahead and he is not to take liberty to breed his mares until it is granted. And he never bullys them but courts them all kindly.. He works at liberty much of the time and follows like a puppy or goes to his pen when asked. He does anything IF ASKED as he respects that. He even stands to be groomed no halter. He is in his early 20's and been our baby and a love since birth. His natural disposition absolutely just shines.
Good luck in your riding. Be kind, be patient and understanding! You wil get what you give!
And may you always have a safe day.
Karen Nesbitt
Iroquois County - Illinois
VMSAR
Or drop me an email, I am always happy to
discuss horses and methods of training..
--- On Wed, 8/20/08, Laurie <lhanahan@mindspring.com> wrote:
From: Laurie <lhanahan@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Will scenting cause a horse to be more jittery... And what stinks...
To: spanishequines@yahoo.com, "'MSAR'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008, 7:52 AM
Exactly what the kind of info I was looking for – than you for putting so much thought and effort into your response!
I’ve owned my Mtn Pleasure mare (gaited) since she was 2, she is now 7 and besides the lady who started her, I’m the only one who has ever been on her. We did extensive natural horsemanship training, obstacle courses, parades wearing x-mas bells, clinics, traveled halfway across the country, judged pleasure rides, etc. She rides in a rope halter with ease, hasn’t had a bit since she was 3. Just doesn’t need it. Mia has fantastic sensibility, when startled has always spooked in place, been curious about what spooked her, and a boss mare in the pasture. We’ve had deer, rabbits, fox and wild turkey pop out in front of us and we continue on down the trail without missing a step. She turns approaching dogs and cattle with ease. People with green horses love to ride w/us because she is so calm and she will
teach their horse manners without kicking them. One of our classes was a “bombproofing” clinic, we dealt with flares, smoke machines, starter pistols, walked through bubble wrap, over a mattress and other common obstacles such as flags, pool noodles, and such. She handled all that with calmness and curiosity.
Mia’s reaction to the bear was totally unexpected and I made it 100% worse because I was totally unprepared when it happened. I managed to stay on for quite a while but could not regain myself and when she turned I continued straight. J If I had not been so relaxed when we were standing around eating grass and had been prepared to react immediately when she started, the outcome would have been totally different. She has been a little more jittery than normal since then which has un-nerved me. We’ve been riding w/known horses and on mainly known trails to help her (and me) regain our confidence and
it is working. We are settling down again.
I have to say I was pleased with her reaction to the second bear last week. We watched the bear run up over the ridge, she remained responsive and willing to continue down the trail, which was very encouraging.
Thanks again for all the info – I look forward to working with it both at home and eventually out on trails. And the bear bell should arrive any day now – don’t know if it works but figured it can’t hurt (except maybe our ears). ;-)
Laurie Hanahan
TROTSAR
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Nesbitt [mailto:spanishequines@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:44 PM
To: MSAR
Subject: Will scenting cause a horse to be more jittery... And what stinks...
I probably can elaborate on this subject for you. First of all, horses are flight or fight animals relying on thier instincts to survive. Something I think man has forgot. But anyway, I personally find in training that it is not so much having to modify the horses behavior, it is more of modifying our own. It is learning your animal and knowing how it reacts to certain scenarios for the betterment of how you ride it. By this I mean, most horses will want to flee when endangered, so when your mount is in this type of situation, its brain usually has a tendency to be one directional, quick to react and act accordingly.
The majority of horses that I have worked with when they do spook, they have a tendency to jump in one direction and are consistant in it time after time. ..Most people are like that too. Pay attention to yourself the next times you get startled and how you react and what direction you have a NATURAL tendency to go. This may sound stupid, but where are your eyes looking at the time and where are your shoulders and feet leading?
When you can read your horse and know his "direction quirk" You will be better able to ride and stay with him. Your horse reads you too and knows much of how you are going to react, but he is the quicker partner.
Let me elaborate on this and more. If you have ever riden a onesided or stiff horse, you will get a better feel for what I am saying. Those horses seem to move better in a particular direction.and spook in the direction their body will allow them to move the swiftest. Chances are if you are on a stiff left sided horse, he will go off to the right leading with his shoulder and viceversa so you can anticipate his behavior and act on it thus modifying your riding ability you can learn better how to stay on him. Whether or not you are on him, the animal will have a certain direction he prefers and is ABLE to lead out with. Learn it. If they spook on the ground, you may just be in his way.
I suggest first start out and observe your horse seriously at pasture. Learn its particular body language. Body language, like scent can be everything to a horse. If your horse is in a group, you will notice the leaders and the way they will move about and boss the other more submissive herdmates around. You can tell a lot by how they make their getaways. Learn that and then you can then apply it to your riding to ride more safely to stay with your horse as opposed to hitting the ground. I can manipulate the direction of my entire herd with a toss of my head or a point of a finger to a whistle. They know me and my language like a book. I will work several horses at a time in a round pen and pretty much all will take heed to me. I can also at the same time get one individual in that group to change speed, direction or
other while the rest continue what they were asked to do by my body language.
I, for one would not want to be grounded if I was in the vicinity of a bear or any other large predator. I stand a better chance of surviving if staying ON the horse. Consider this. your 900 lb (plus or minus) horse is stronger than you and for that matter so can a 300 lb pony, and if it decides it is going to leave you, you stand no chance of holding the animal if it is in fear of its own life and hell bent to flee and you are grounded. So then you are stranded dealing with a potential killer. You are far better to stay on him. If you do find though you are on foot and able to maintain your mount, keep the horse between you and the attacker. At that point, it wil be your safety that is all that matters. In as much as we love our horses and may try to opt to defend them instead, a new mount can be
had..
With scenting, you need to pay particular attention to wind direction too. I once had a sherrifs deputy tell me that the oder from a decomp was coming from something that had to be within fifty feet nearby. He was dead wrong in that the odor was coming from something dead nearly a half a mile away. His comments, he did not think a scent could carry that far. I said well, guess again.. you see those buzzards...your carcass is right under them right about where that tree is and look how high up they are.. and the wind was in our direction making it seem like the carcass was within a short distance and it was very very strong and yeah, you would have sworn just like he did up and down the dead was right under our noses. So bear that in mind.
So ok, getting back to your question of will the scents cause a horse to be more jittery in the home or familiar environment. All I can say is that really depends. 1) if you are working to desensatize your mount so he does not spook or 2) if you are trying to enhance his reactions so you can learn to track with him relying on his instincts. And 3) depends much on the horse and its particular natural fear level and if the scent is a natural startle. (Ie: bear, cougar etc...). it can go either way.
As you have mentioned, riding alert is a key. Harnessing your awareness to how your horse reacts in fear or on certain scents is a plus.
I personally rely on the horses natural ability and body language because to me, all things natural and in nature tell me alot more on my surroundings and what is there. One of the great advantages I have riding a Paso is that I can always tell when something is amiss.
There is just something about the gait not being quite right when the horse alerts. I am sure trotters are the same, but the gaited breeds break gait, where a trotter always has a broken bouncy gait and sometimes it can be hard to tell and most trotter riders pay little attention. Most trotting horse riders I know have a tendency to also ride very stiff. A gaited horse rider is more relaxed and comforable.
Ok, now you can take different scents and put them on rags to present them to your horse to see what he is capable of handling and his reactions to each. That is where you learning his body language will come in very handy. If you train too often on a particular scent, the horse can become immune to the oder and lesson his reaction to it. It is up to you to decide if you are wanting to sharpen his reaction or calm him. You can use the scented rags to handle the horse and to let him sniff. try to keep him calm, sooth him and teach him he has nothing to fear by rubbing him with the rag, much like a sacking out lessen the colts learn when they begin training. Here at our farm we train by the theory, don't start no, and there will be none...refering to a bucking horse and we never train fear.
At this point, I would like to tie another element into training and that is fear and pain. If a horse is acting in fear or in pain, it will display unhappiness. This behavior is often displayed as tail ringing, ear pinning or some form of agression be it wanting to attack or flee. You need to learn the difference of your animals acting out in fear or from pain. There can be a fine line between the two. How you ride can be a big factor on how your horse will react too. They can sense (and smell) your fear and attitude.
I think it is terribly wrong for a trainer to train his mount to become submissive due to the trainer being a bully and making the horse react out of fear. Equally I think it is wrong for the horse to be in pain while being handled. There are some horrible trainers out there that just cannot or will not part the two. They are abusive in their methods misreading the horses fear not realizing the animal is actually in pain and reacting because badly of that. Case in point, heavy hands on a bit, misfitting equipment, a stiff rider, the horse being stiff and the list can go on. An unscrupulous trainer can train a good hait as well as a bad....A mean trainer cares little about the horses pain.
Well, just my two cents.. while not all will agree, this is what works for us. It is up to you to decide what you are trying to accomplish. And lastly, it may take some time to learn yoru mount. Sometimes it can take more than a year especially if you just got your mount and it is going through what I call the new home greiving process. The first year can sometimes be a real "trial" by fire.
Hope this helps and your additional questions or comments are welcome!
Iroquois County - Illinois
Or drop me an email, I am always happy to
discuss horses and methods of training..
--- On Tue, 8/19/08, Laurie <lhanahan@mindspring.com> wrote:
From: Laurie <lhanahan@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: [MSAR] Coyotes, or are they really? And what stinks...
To: spanishequines@yahoo.com, "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Tuesday, August 19, 2008, 5:21 PM
Karen can you please elaborate on scent training? If you start in a familiar environment, such as home, will it cause the horse to become more spooky or jittery for a while?
I have had 2 black bear encounters in the past 3 months here in Northern Virginia, obviously bear are becoming more numerous but luckily they have been very happy to run in the opposite direction from us. The horse’s reaction was not cool the first time – she left the scene and I ended up on the ground. So obviously I’d like to modify her reactions. And I ride more alert nowadays! The second time as soon as I saw the bear was leaving our area, I dismounted to avoid a repeat reaction. But I’d like to be able to do better than that.
Thanks for sharing.
TROTSAR
-----Original Message-----
From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karen Nesbitt
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 2:57 PM
To: MSAR
Subject: [MSAR] Coyotes, or are they really? And what stinks...
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:31:39 -0600
From: "David Skofstad" <dbs54neigh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] cougar sightings
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <380-22008821915313931@earthlink.net" target=_blank rel=nofollow>380-22008821915313931@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
You didn't expect a reply from the Chicago, IL, area but here it is. A Cougar was shot and killed by Chicago PD in a north side neighborhood this year. DNA testing indicated the same cat had been confirmed in the area of central Wisconsin some months before. There have been reports for a couple of years of cougar sightings in northeastern Illinois, some of them from reliable observers. A casting of a footprint was taken about 18 months ago by a wildlife biologist.
Perhaps cougars are taking the evolutionary path of coyotes...formerly highly shy and secretive, now not so much.
As a side note, local animal rights crazies have been very critical of the shooting, stating that cougars "never attack humans". This cat was a couple of blocks from a grade school. My opinion, it would have been irresponsible in the extreme to pass up the chance to contain the threat.
---message truncated for space>>>>>>>>
In response to Dave and some generalizations...,
The so called evolutionary path of the coyote has been to mate with domestic dogs and therefore the result of that mating is neither a coyote or a dog, but what many refer to coy-dogs. These types of animals are confused in their thinking and are a detriment to the environment. Don't know what your big cats are mating with, but surely not a housecat as size is everything. They are just gradually getting into the suburbs due to urban sprawl which is compromising their territory as well as our own areas to ride in.
Where a coyote is actually an asset, the coy-dog is the nusiance because it does not know its own mind whether to partake in domestic dog activity or wild. Where a true coyote will kill and clean up its prey simply because it eaats to survive and its prey being mostly small animals such as rabbits, ground birds, squirrels, fox, etc a coy-dog will rather play with the animals it staulks, kill it and leave it for dead than eat it a majority of time, becasue they are killing for sport and chase. Wild coyotes conserve their energies to survive so they generally do not hunt for sport and as a rule, a good HEALTHYcoyote is often heard, but never seen. Where ranchers have sheep, sheep can become victims if they are young, weak or too old to defend themselves. However a good sized HEALTHY sheep can pack a helluva a whallop in defending themselves
when it comes to a well pounded headbutt. A sheep can literally break a human leg or worse if in a bad situation of defending themselves. Especially bighorned varieties. Deer too. A healthy deer can take out a coyote or out run it. Having been a rancher, I would just asoon the coyote or wolf take my weak and let nature keep my flock stronger by natural selection.
There has been romoured to be a large type of cat in the Iroqouis County area of Illinois in my area, however, in ten years I have yet to see, hear or lay eyes on any tracks of one. Tracks mostly have been dogs, deer, rabbit, small housecat, bird. They coyotes the train whistles...
We have sighted Texas Red wolves here which are not native and due to some bonehead (for lack of a better word) decideing to try ot raise them, and after finding out it was illegal to do without special permits etc, he released them into the wild quite a few years back and now the wolf is here in an area not its norm, but like the coyote, they kill to eat, clean it up and hunt to survive. They don't as a rule hunt for sport. Coyotes and wolves will scavenge, they also eat berries and certain plants to survive.
Horses can feel threatened by the smell of foreign urine and fece. They can get spooky. Suggested remedies is to train your horses to accept the scents and learn his reactions individually when possible.. You can get scents in your local hunting supplies stores or by mailorder. Bear, coyote, cat all seem to be offensive to many a steed and some horses will even get antsy if smelling human urine or fece, other scents deer scant as well. and things such as chemicals...gasoline, diesel, decomp etc.
Some horses will craze out and throw their riders. Much of the time when your horses is spooking, it is more so on scent then sight. Take time to learn how your animal reacts to weird scenes as well as wild scents and also the scents of chemicals. Horses can virtually see 360 degrees all around except in certain situations and they cannot see directly behind. When startled, horses will bolt or strike, kick and many will take terror and runaway with or without their rider..
Equine accidents often are just that, accidents, however criminals acting on a victim who they know are around livestock can use that to cause injury or harm with virtually out a clue. They can try scenting to cause the animals to react to harm their handlers or other means such as noise to startle the animals. Learn your animal. Turn its habits into protection for self. That is YOURSELF.
I guess coming form the old school of preparedness, ride prepared, then you can ride well. Riding or handling well, means safety for both you and your mount.
Having been attacked by dogs on the bridle path, I have found taking your horse into a speedy tail spin to confront the would be attacker k-9 works extremely well, as you are bigger and badder in their eyes and they generally will leave with tail tucked, but yes, the 45 degree angle method of not taking your EYE off the intruder is good too, but keep the other peeled for traffic. There seems to be a huge amount of IDIOTS on the road these days and could careless that you as ahorsemen have the right of way. There are of course some breeds of domestic dogs that are chasers and a word of caution too is advised on what you are going to confront as some of those can be persistant and relentless in their harassments to equines. It is sometimes hard to tell in the case of a coy-dog if it is a chaser, but assume that it is. In which it
is a good idea to have a mount under you which will defend itself by either striking, kicking or rearing. Works on two legged offenders as well. But distance is the key in safety. Never let anyone approach your horse from the front so they can grab a rein. The medevial dressage manuevers were
used with great purpose but not everyone can perform a piaffe or levade without practice or training.
Now, about that snake... oh, you did not see that one coming. But bet your horse smelled him before he struck.... sit tight. SCENT is everything. But having a visiual, is not always possible.
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