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- From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
- To: machinist@lists.ibiblio.org
- Subject: [machinist] Scraping Bibliography
- Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 12:37:11 -0500
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/scraping-bibliography-277854/
Thread: Scraping Bibliography
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Scraping Bibliography
I discovered an excellent and very complete annotated bibliography on metal scraping, beginning with Joseph Whitworth (1840), to the present (2013). The site has also several other pages with interesting material pertaining to metalworking. It is at circuitousroot.com/artifice/machine-shop/surface-finishing/hand-scraping/index.html.
Happy New Year! -
Thanks for that, not a bad bibliography, he missed mentioning Schlesinger, but on the other hand, it's nice to see Nick Mueller getting a mention!
Ray -
01-03-2014, 10:49 AM #3
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The K&J video is a good one that I hadn't seen:
K & J Scraping Training Video - YouTube
In the comments everyone is asking: what are the orange and black contrast pigments he's using? My guess is red lead for the orange (hence not saying what it is). But does anyone know what he's using on the plate for black? It really shows up beautifully in the video. -
Do you happen to have a URL for Schlesinger?
Originally Posted by RayG
Thanks for that, not a bad bibliography, he missed mentioning Schlesinger, but on the other hand, it's nice to see Nick Mueller getting a mention!
Ray -
Black pigment
I did it with lamp black, made by H. Schmincke (in Germany), which I bought from Pearl. That was back in 2007, but I would assume they still sell it. Originally Posted by rustygreen
The K&J video is a good one that I hadn't seen:
K & J Scraping Training Video - YouTube
In the comments everyone is asking: what are the orange and black contrast pigments he's using? My guess is red lead for the orange (hence not saying what it is). But does anyone know what he's using on the plate for black? It really shows up beautifully in the video. -
I have the Seventh edition on pdf, Edited by Koenigsberger. Send me a PM if you want a copy. Originally Posted by peregrin
Do you happen to have a URL for Schlesinger?
RayLast edited by RayG; 01-03-2014 at 11:04 PM.
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Nice! Thanks for posting this, I hadn't seen that video until now. Originally Posted by peregrin
I discovered an excellent and very complete annotated bibliography on metal scraping, beginning with Joseph Whitworth (1840), to the present (2013). The site has also several other pages with interesting material pertaining to metalworking. It is at circuitousroot.com/artifice/machine-shop/surface-finishing/hand-scraping/index.html.
Happy New Year! -
01-04-2014, 01:07 PM #8
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Dang!I discovered an excellent and very complete annotated bibliography on metal scraping
They didn't include me.
Shape 'n Scrape, 5 part series in HSM, 1990's
Too late for the historical crowd, too early for rise of the home shop/hobby interest, I guess.
smt -
You still own the copyright. Not too late to put up a link to it here Originally Posted by stephen thomas
Dang!
They didn't include me.
Shape 'n Scrape, 5 part series in HSM, 1990's
Too late for the historical crowd, too early for rise of the home shop/hobby interest, I guess.
smt
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01-04-2014, 05:15 PM #10
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I have a copy of "Testing Machine Tools" by DR. Ing. Georg Schlesinger Third edition no date given. There is no mention of scraping.
Don -
01-04-2014, 05:50 PM #11
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It is a pity there is no good scan of "Testing machine Tools"
There is an Indian one that is useful, but is not a good scan... The book is way way out of print and quite rare, virtually unavailable to buy, but I see available to at least anyone in Australia that resides in a capital city (it is in quite a few university libraries here).. And the author died something like sixty years ago... -
Check with Rich King. That's where I got my good scan. Originally Posted by RC99
It is a pity there is no good scan of "Testing machine Tools"
There is an Indian one that is useful, but is not a good scan... The book is way way out of print and quite rare, virtually unavailable to buy, but I see available to at least anyone in Australia that resides in a capital city (it is in quite a few university libraries here).. And the author died something like sixty years ago... -
01-04-2014, 06:07 PM #13
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No, but it is extremely valuable for anyone doing machine reconditioning.There is no mention of scraping.
Talks about tolerances of axes alignment etc. for any (any?) machine tool.
Edit:
While it is true that the Schlesinger is hard to find, you will find the same numbers with a bit of additions in the DIN 8605 (etc.)
Schlesing was the father of these standards worldwide. He really made a very logical and systematic work.
NickRichard King and AlfaGTA like this. -
01-04-2014, 07:02 PM #14
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Originally Posted by gcude
Check with Rich King. That's where I got my good scan.
I think we all have the same one, from some library in India?
It is legible and mostly clear, but some pages are not legible, plus it has the binder marks and the pages are not square... Yes I am being picky I know... If the governments of the world had not gone full retard on the copyright issue (apparently patents are only worth 20 years but copyright might as well be forever given the time on it) people would not be scared with these old out of print books to put them in the public domain.... -
There's a copy of the Schlesinger book here - Scheslinger's Testing Machine Tools
You need to be a member of the forum to download it. I tried to register but never got a confirmation email. -
01-05-2014, 01:11 PM #16
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This bibliography is a real help to me in adding to the reference list I use for my scraping classes. Any who've taken my classes have received a CD of miscillaneous materials, commentaries, and ancillary information. I've been looking in all the wrong places for the Whitworth paper on generating flat surfaces and the best I could find is Charles Porter "Engineering Reminiscences" who only references the technique with a quick description.
Steven Thomas, you do not go unrecognized by me. I mention your scraping articles in HSM Magazine in my every class. Your articles are a prime example of application of scraping theory to a practical project and how to intelligently apply "English" to provide wear and deflection allowances. Steven's five part article should be part of this bibliography because of its photos and well written discussion. Steven has also makes relatively light weight 32" straight edge castings. Any who needs a scraped straightedge and is willing to DIY the scraping part apply to Steven.
I'm flattered that my name appears in the OP bibliography link but I gotta say but I'm also little sheepish because I've made little contribution to the body of knowledge. I'm mostly a preserver and presenter of nearly lost lore: lore of immense practical value to the budget challenged small machine shop operator and the home shop machinist. With basic scraping skills, a willing heart, dogged perseverance, and gathered tools and research, a home shop guy can re-condition a worn-out but otherwise complete machine tool to like-new condition for accuracy, linearity, alignment, and durability of the axes' sliding elements. The basis of this work is skill with the hand scraper and the techniques used descend from Whitworth down generations of refiners and elaborators to today in the persons of Rich King, Don Roperts, myself, and a dozen or so oher scraping teachers and a few hundred full-time practitioners in this country and our colleagues around the world.
Many undocumented trades and skills of yore languish for lack of organized conservation.Last edited by Forrest Addy; 01-06-2014 at 06:20 AM.
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I have a first edition of this book. I'll contact Greg M. and see if he will scan and post it on his website for all of us to view and down load. My copy is in good to very good shape for its age. Originally Posted by RC99
It is a pity there is no good scan of "Testing machine Tools"
There is an Indian one that is useful, but is not a good scan... ...
One unique thing about this book, it has a intentional vertical fold made into the soft bound covers so it could be folded in half and poked into your back pocket. This was for the floor inspectors to carry around with them.
Ken -
01-05-2014, 04:27 PM #18
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01-05-2014, 04:58 PM #19
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I would be willing to make a scan and convert to pdf of my copy of the third edition if copyright isn't an issue. Originally Posted by RC99
It is a pity there is no good scan of "Testing machine Tools"
There is an Indian one that is useful, but is not a good scan... The book is way way out of print and quite rare, virtually unavailable to buy, but I see available to at least anyone in Australia that resides in a capital city (it is in quite a few university libraries here).. And the author died something like sixty years ago...
DonLast edited by Don Clement; 01-05-2014 at 07:55 PM.
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I was unaware of your series, and expect I'll want to mention it in the resources section of my metalscraping CD. Which issues it is in? My HSM copies don't go back that far, but I probably can get them as back issues. Unless there is (or is going to be Originally Posted by stephen thomas
Shape 'n Scrape, 5 part series in HSM, 1990's) a link?
BTW I tried to PM you, but your storage is full.
Reply
Thread: Scraping Bibliography
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01-06-2014, 12:51 PM #21
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Peregrin-
Nov/Dec'97 through Jul/Aug'98.
Joe Rice (HSM editor from the early days) was a saint who developed me along and put up with some immature crap from me; but conversely "disorganized" might have been a charitable description of things at his end. I can only imagine he was overloaded. But I am not the only contributor from those days who discovered that he lost important stuff routinely, failed to return materials requested, and sometimes "re-arranged" materials out of sequence. In the series here described, some of the pictures in different articles go with previous or later articles, but if you get all 5, the sequence can be figured out.
In one part I also mis-state some historical anecdotes relating to the development of the lathe & machine tools (Maudsley) but the scraping stuff is accurate; subject of course to varying different personal styles.
e h m c o fab at g mail dot com.
smt -
Thanks, Stephen, I think I can get them all from ebay. Originally Posted by stephen thomas
Peregrin-
Nov/Dec'97 through Jul/Aug'98.
I'm assuming 'fab' is supposed to be attached to the previous five letters. If not, would you mind straightening me out...e h m c o fab at g mail dot com.
Cheers! -
01-07-2014, 01:16 AM #23
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Thanks! Originally Posted by js412000
Peregrin -
01-13-2014, 03:16 PM #26
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They didn't mention me also....oh well. I have discovered over the years, not many really care to much about the history. I like reading it though. I also saw an article at Kingsbury Babbitt Bearing company has and it describes how Tomas Edison - GE- had issues with the 3 shoe'd Babbitt bearing he used in vertical generators would need to be replaced often until he scraped them and how one generator had lasted 100 years running time in an oil bath. I will write Kingbury where I taught a scraping class and see if I can get a copy of it.
I still have 3 hard cover copies of the Testing Machine Tool Book. I actually bought the last 8 copies of it that 8th Edition that Pergamon Press had. I still have 3 of them. I used to get them copied until I was told that Kinko's was sued for making copies of copyrighted books.
I have always said "Scraping is easy to learn, but knowing where to scrape and how much to take off is the key! It's a skilled trade" That is why we can teach people to scrape over a weekend. Scraping a flat surface is simple if you learn from someone. I recall what one of my students said. He had read the Connelly book several times and never figured it out until i was standing behind him coaching him.
Tthe Schlesinger book is so important. It shows you what the spec's should be. Nick is right on George Schlesinger was the father of all the following spec's were based on. I just saw a spec sheet from Drake CNC Thread Grinder and the spec sheet looked like the chart from the 1932 book.
I also believe I read one paragraph in it where he mentions scraping.
Some day when they are collector items I may sell one ha ha.......I plan on donating them someday to some museum.
They failed to mention my DVD and my classes too. Oh well... I hope history someday will recognize my efforts to teach it, plus what Forrest and Nick have done in our time. I always tell my students "" To pass on what I have taught them and I get emotional about it, it means a lot to me that it isn't called a "lost art" again."" I suspect there are now more people scraping because of our efforts then there ever has been. RichLast edited by Richard King; 01-14-2014 at 07:07 AM.
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01-14-2014, 04:37 AM #27
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So true!Scraping is easy to learn, but knowing where to scrape and how much to take off is the key!
Nick -
01-14-2014, 10:19 AM #28
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Most often the scraping classes we present are geared for the novice thinking about re-scraping an older machine tool. Precision scraping technique lends itself to a wide variety of applications from restorating of weld repairs to steam turbine cases to astronomy telescope hydrostatic bearing fitting, to - if a point can be stretched - adjusting bite surfaces in dentistry and field repairs in in oil country and large scale mill equipment.
But generally, our scraping classes involve cast iron way bearings and that involves geometry control from the very beginning. That is fitting of parts that when assembled results in cartesian machine tool movements in alignment and plane to single digit ten-thousandths per foot in linearity, tracking, and lost motion and single digit arc seconds of mutial perpendicularity.
Geometry control can be described as knowing where to scrape and is best learned early in scraping training. The 1"+ x 3"+ x 9" cast iron project piece used in Don's and my scraping classes is a complete scraping project in a nutshell. It starts where the beginners scrapes the first broad side flat, then the opposite side parallel, then the first edge edge square, etc until a near perfect rectangular section is obtained flat, square, and parallel to sub-tenth tolerance but a necessary bit oversize. This one project piece trains the novice scraper hand in the use of scraping technique not only to obtain flatness in the work piece but how to correct for error in squareness and parallelism. In the end, the scraped project piece is sawed into 2"+ pieces and machined to length plus scraping stock After scraping to dimension, the end result is a set of four scraped 1-2-3 blocks to dimension plus a 0.0004" wear alowance.
It also emphasises a "scraping plan." You get to a destination with a map; in scraping where so many inter-dependent variables arise in the course of a machine tool re-scrape you need a plan so you know where and how much to scrape. A carefully worked out plan for each part of the puzzle not only ensures a good result but cuts the scraping time by large factors.
Plan your work then work your plan. You don't simply rip a machine tool apart and start scraping. You conduct a survey while the machine is still assembled, noting all errors, defects, lost motion etc completing one of George Schlesinger's test sheets as a "before" record.
There follows disassembly. cleaning, parts repair, and prep, a second brief survey of each axis element part to determine the amount of stock removal (machine work may save time if stock removal is greater than - say - 0.008" on a face depending on the scale of the part.) Along the way all sources of error, deviations from linearity, alighment, fit, and bearing condition are remedied following a plan.
Cutting to the chase, machine tool reconditioning used to be part of the millwright's trade and it took a four year apprenticeship to master the areas and elements necessary to acheive journeyman status. A noob with a worn-out lathe or milling machine is not going to learn the ways and means of machine tool reconditioning is a single week-end. The class is only a beginning, a glimpse into the once thriving trade of machine tool reconditioing. The novice will learn the basics, the tools and techniques, enough to get him started and what questions to ask - and thanks to his new vocabulary, how to ask them when the time comes.
If Rich King, Don Roberts, our counterparts throughout the world, and myself had our way, our students would become monsters of persistance and precision to the point that foundry yards, back lots, and recyclers would be emptied of the rusting carcasses of once top of the line machine tools which would be re-conditioned to be available at low cost to machine shop noobs everywhere.
How you start determines how you continue. In scraping, geometry control and planning starts with scraping your very first flat surface. The novice absolutely has to learn to be haunted by the looming question: what comes next? -
01-14-2014, 01:04 PM #29
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That what is unique about our teaching styles, you do the block they keep, I have plates I re-use and keep and then the student brings a project or i supply one. I assume most students want to scrape a machine to make it better, that's why most want to scrape right?. I know if I was a hobbyist with a lathe compound bouncing around or the gib was so worn you have to shim it I would want to learn to scrape a machine part. That's why I do a 3 day to 5 day class so they can bring along a project and I can not only teach them to hand scrape and 1/2 moon flake, I show them how to level and align machines, how to scrape gibs, scrape a lathe compound checking parallelism and re-newing the gibs. As a professional I had to learn how to rebuild several types of machines and how to rebuild hydraulics, remove and replace bearings, the whole package of rebuilding. That is what I want to impart into my classes. I know there is no way a student can become a journeyman rebuilder in 3 to 5 days, but when they get home with a copy of the Connelly, Moore, Schlesinger, have the new to us all internet and You Tube, able to call me for advise. I have seen some amazing work from our students. Rich over in England learned to scrape and rebuild his table top mill with all our help on here. Phil Perry who (he had an advantage I guess was a Journeyman Watch Maker and PHD in something) took a rebuilding 5 day class 20 years ago and since then he is rebuilding and restoring vintage machines to new machine quality. So it is possible to learn to be a damn good rebuilder from a short time of training with all the help out here / there. I hope sooner then later we can all meet to shake each others hand and share our experiences in person and not just here. Rich
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01-14-2014, 01:25 PM #30
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A while back when I started to get older I bought a biax off ebay, that turned out to be from Rich King. We talked some on the phone and he sent along one of his videos, which Forrest & I later used as the introduction to the first scrape-fest in Savannah. It has been passed along to others since. Even if you have someone to guide you, the basic information in the video is an excellent start to flat scraping, by hand, and then with a biax. If you don't have any help to get started, the video will clarify a lot of things from a technical perspective; and set an example for _productive_ scraping from a practical perspective.
Most people starting out do not understand or recognize scraping as an effective hand material removal process & get bogged down way to early scraping for tenths. When getting started roughing out a part, hand alone and certainly biax scraping can move a lot of metal if you plan (as Forrest notes) and proceed in an efficient manner.
Rich always threatened to bring out a follow-up video on scraping for geometry & I always looked forward to it. Or maybe I missed, have you ever had time to do that?
smtRichard King likes this. -
01-14-2014, 01:53 PM #31
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Yes that is the Indian copy.... Fairly well done but few pages unreadable... Originally Posted by js412000
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Knowing where to scrape...
I agree with Richard and Nick, that "knowing where to scrape and how much to take off is the key." And in machine alignment, and in various other situations, how to bring two or more surfaces in right relation with one another is an integral part of learning to scrape.
My introduction to machine alignment was when I was still in Italy, and the Master Scraper I was training with got me invited to a seminar-workshop given by the Istituto Galileo Ferraris, which was the Italian counterpart of NIST. It was focused on machine geometry and the basic principles of alignment, and the approach, like many things Italian at the time, was rather unorthodox. After learning the basic theory, you were shown a machine you had not seen before, and with only very general information about it were asked to figure out its geometry, and develop an alignment procedure for it. You had to figure out what each working element was for, then how its alignment accuracy contributed to the accuracy of a machined part, then how to measure the accuracy of that element, and how to correct it if needed, usually by scraping. We did that for several machines, a Grazioli lathe, a Bridgeport-like vertical mill, a Dekel Pantograph, and a couple of others. The last was a SIP Hydroptic, the one with no lead screws. For that one there was a designer from SIP present, who explained how the design choices of its very unorthodox architecture were arrived at, and who was available to answer questions. That was the high point of the seminar. The basic principles of machine alignment are of course straightforward, so once figured out, they can be applied to any machine.
In my first metal scraping CD alignment is considered throughout, but I would have liked it to be more. The CD covers in some detail the fundamentals of scraping, to include people who have no scraping experience or are just beginning to scrape, so I did not have room to deal more extensively with machine alignment. However alignment is addressed specifically in a number of the examples, such as a detailed description of how to scrape to alignment the saddle and cross slide of a lathe, and how to scrape accurately, in right relation to one another, the working surfaces of several precision measuring tools. From the feedback I have received, it looks like that material is working well, and people are applying it successfully.
I am working now on a second CD, in which I am planning to have a substantial section on machine alignment, in general and as it is encountered in typical scraping situations. So I would very much welcome input from you guys (here, or to peregrin at metalscraping dot com) about what topics you are interested in, and would like to see included.
Peregrin. -
01-15-2014, 12:28 AM #33
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Thanks for the post. it means a lot to hear those kind words. I started a couple of other tapes and had it lined up to do some for The Government years ago at the Mechanicsburg facility for the navy. I got really sick back then and asked Forest to fill-in and he I believe had a stroke..and he asked someone who I won't mention his name as it makes me vomit when I say it. LOL...never the less I am well now and when I asked Defense Logistics East, the new name about doing them last time I taught 24 Apprentices over 2 years out there a few years ago to scrape, they told me they had an employee do one on Bridgeport scraping back when I could not come. I am pretty sure that's the one sold on Ebay now. Over the years I have let the students video my classes and until I retire that's going to be it unless one of them You Tubes it. One of my students I had last spring in the GA class is doing a marvelous series on Youtube. He flew over from Norway to take the class...I am very proud of him.. check out his work. Originally Posted by stephen thomas
A while back when I started to get older I bought a biax off ebay, that turned out to be from Rich King. We talked some on the phone and he sent along one of his videos, which Forrest & I later used as the introduction to the first scrape-fest in Savannah. It has been passed along to others since. Even if you have someone to guide you, the basic information in the video is an excellent start to flat scraping, by hand, and then with a biax. If you don't have any help to get started, the video will clarify a lot of things from a technical perspective; and set an example for _productive_ scraping from a practical perspective.
Most people starting out do not understand or recognize scraping as an effective hand material removal process & get bogged down way to early scraping for tenths. When getting started roughing out a part, hand alone and certainly biax scraping can move a lot of metal if you plan (as Forrest notes) and proceed in an efficient manner.
Rich always threatened to bring out a follow-up video on scraping for geometry & I always looked forward to it. Or maybe I missed, have you ever had time to do that?
smt
Jan Sverre Haugjord .
I will or plan to write a book some day. I hope Forrest, Don or Nick does too. Forrest has a ways with words. I just hope one of us writes the next one and not some new comer who we can see is full of baloney. PMC over in Taiwan has one but it's in Chinese. They started one on our website. scraping.pmc.org.tw < Dawoo in Korea has one and 1/2 the info is copies of my manual I pass out at classes. How they got a hold of one is beyond me. Collector or Shane up in Canada showed me a manual he got from a very tall fellow from MN who also went up there to teach him... and showed me it....Guess what? It was a photo copy of my manual...this tall guy had been a student and changed the first page and used it...LOL....crazy....
I tell you what....Stephen Are you going to Cabin Fever next spring? Do you have a good camera? Maybe we can do something out there? One of the students volunteers at a vintage machine museum and maybe we can shoot something there? I plan on going, it sounds like a blast. My PA students told me about it... It's a small world sometime. I never knew you bought a scraper from me and taught classes with Forrest. I just saw the Home Shop series you wrote down in AL 3years ago when we did a class there....There have been so many students over the years....and customers..hard to remember them all. (Plug, pardon me) I plan on selling a King-Way and a Biax on EB soon. I apolize for high jacking this thread...it's late and im tired. Good night. RichLast edited by Richard King; 01-15-2014 at 08:21 AM.
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01-15-2014, 02:58 AM #34
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I won't write a book.I will or plan to write a book some day. I hope Forrest, Don or Nick does too.
I quote you again:
"Scraping is easy to learn, but knowing where to scrape and how much to take off is the key!"
In my eyes, it is very hard to explain by words how to properly observe how the patterns evolves, how to build a map of the surface you work on.
I think this is best done by examples. Sure, there are basic patterns (like bowed or twisted surface) and it is easy to explain how to detect them. But then, the book would end after 5 pages and would have explained everything. A reader would read it, say WTF! and would have learned nothing. Let the students make their own errors, but stand behind them and explain what went wrong / what happened.
I think that's the best way to teach it.
And in regard to metrology:
One sentence is enough and essential: As long as your setup isn't repeatable within your accepted/required tolerances, it is crap.
So yes, a weekend class is enough. The rest is blood, sweat and tears. Then, after maybe 100 hours, a slap with the scraper (not the Biax) and 1 hours showing how to rough and keep on roughing until the last moment.
Again, building a map of the surface is the key-knowledge. Adjust the map by observing your progress. And that can't be explained by a book. Only by blood, sweat and tears and explanations of a teacher.
My opinion. I haven't seen a video (mine including) that shows that and expressively explaining it. Explaining why you rough here and there and leave out this and that spot.
Well, maybe this video will happen sometimes ...
BTW: Video!
I'm quite pissed by YouTube's requirement to be a Google+ member to even answer questions to my own videos. I have been looking for alternatives, as I will NEVER in my life sign up to Google+. But I didn't find something. Maybe I'll find a solution ...
Nick -
I agree Nick, I no longer comment or ask questions about videos because of this requirement. As far as I'm concerned Google can stick it. I use them as a search engine, but see no reason that I should divulge all manner of personal details to these companies. Originally Posted by Nick Mueller
I'm quite pissed by YouTube's requirement to be a Google+ member to even answer questions to my own videos. I have been looking for alternatives, as I will NEVER in my life sign up to Google+. But I didn't find something. Maybe I'll find a solution ...
Nick -
Vimeo I think rivals youtube. Plenty of on-line comparisons. Originally Posted by Pete F
I agree Nick, I no longer comment or ask questions about videos because of this requirement. As far as I'm concerned Google can stick it. I use them as a search engine, but see no reason that I should divulge all manner of personal details to these companies.
Ray -
01-15-2014, 07:50 AM #37
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I used to have a sales catalog has to be 30 years ago (I have a few left if anyone wants to see it) that showed my cast iron straight-edges, the 3 models of King-Ways, granite squares i was selling and I listed 3 ways I would sell my straightedges plus I wrote I was working on a book called "Modern Machine Tool Rebuilding". MY rep ES Dyjak (and friend) called me saying the guy who makes me vomit when mentioning his name had a brochure that looked like he copied parts of mine. Same exact wording about the 3 ways he makes and sells straight-edges and he mentioned his book with the same name as mine. He has fooled people over the years.
I heard the Ahole was retired and a millionaire in FL. He called me once and said " I heae we are the only 2 guys who teach scraping" I called him a bunch of names and hung up on him... Still makes me sick and I could tell more but might loose it. or you guys might or already have ...lol
I tried to "stream" my video DVD with a company, but streaming company I was using could not get their act together and people wrote me how they paid to see it and it never worked or they saw it unlimited times....I would like to stream it and if anyone knows how please PM me with the company details. Maybe the Vimeo would?? I think a book manual would work, but being able to recover your time and money...I'm not sure you would.
I heard that Edward Connelly died a poor man, but will go down in History for his book.."The Bible of Reconditioning" Basically a manual by organizing several people to write a book. My DVD (was a 3 part video when I started to sell it) was made by a professional when You Tube wasn't an idea and the camera looked like the one the news crews use and it cost me over $12,000.00 to produce. I figure I have probably broke even now after 20 years. I also believe the "art of scraping" is best learned by instruction from a "Master Scraper" or Journeyman who has learned from an expert over years of training, not a summer. A summer of training or how was it said..working with a master for a summer...My first summer as an Apprentice was the low man on the totem pole and I was cleaning the machine sumps and not scraping, Jan wrote me and he is working with a guy in Sweden to arrange a class in Norway or Sweden next fall or the spring of 2015. If I am that close I would love to fly over and meet Nick.
I have to get out and make a living, will start the Myford today, as we had the swivel plate and table top ground. I plan on doing a thread on it. Pictures and not video. Rich -
01-15-2014, 09:55 AM #38
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Richard - In the Dapra scraping class description, it mentions an advanced course that includes scraping for steam pressure joints. How does that differ from scraping for machine ways? Flatter maybe?
As to the need for a hands on instructor, I can vouch for that. In the December class, the student across from me at the same bench turned to me about halfway through Friday and said, "Y'know what? All the work I've done for the past 6 months trying to do this has been wasted." Meaning he'd learned more in a few hours than all his previous struggle on his own, and he already had every document and video mentioned here in this thread with him on his laptop out in his pickup and had been working diligently at it.
For myself, I struggled all day Friday and was almost convinced I wasn't going to 'get it', I just couldn't make my plate look like I wanted it to look. I was using a well used 'store bought' scraper that's been made and used for 100 years, with a brand new carbide blade clamped in it, and was failing to produce a useable result. I hate to blame the tools for my failure so I kept on, convinced I need to try harder. Sat AM Richard took me aside and handed me a Dapra scraper and blade that he had brought with him and said here try this. The first pass across the plate with that scraper and the win light flashed on - I had it. Seems so simple in retrospect, but without that oversight I'd still be struggling. -
Rich, you don't say who "some new comer" is, and if it is not me, please disregard the rest of this post. If, as I assume, it is me, let's see if we can get some perspective. Originally Posted by Richard King
...some new comer who we can see is full of baloney.
a.- In a post on the Scraping Information thread, shortly after I first talked about the CD, you said about me "I am welcoming him to the profession of teaching scraping... It is obvious to me he is not self taught and has had some training."
b.- Here you are saying that I'm "...full of baloney."
It would appear that those two statements are mutually exclusive, so if one is right, the other has to be wrong.
And given that one of those statements, no matter which one, is wrong, perhaps one may be justified in questioning your other statements about my work, and now about myself, which over time have become increasingly disparaging. If you attack me I couldn't care less, because I know where I'm coming from. But if it is my work, and my contribution in these threads, that is a different matter. Because your opinions, which I must say are rather persuasive and therefore difficult to evaluate objectively, have been making a growing barrier between the material I am presenting and the people who could find it useful, and who therefore are made less and less able to evaluate it based on their own judgement.
Of course, "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder. But if the main thing you can see in the material I have posted is that it is "full of baloney", I respectfully suggest that maybe you may be needing a new pair of glasses. The input I have been getting about the CD, from an increasing number of sources, indicates fairly conclusively that what you are putting out is a minority opinion. For example in the "Scraping Information" thread there have been a number of posts from people who believe that what I have been presenting is useful and worthwhile. I have placed a few of those posts, and also of statements about the CD in some websites, at the end of this post. I really hate tooting my own horn, but at this point I have too, in order to bring things back into balance.
You seem to be saying, and rather "vigorously" at that, that because scraping workshops work well, any other approach of learning how to scrape is questionable, or inferior, or somehow "bad", and should be disregarded. With the implication that anyone who disagrees with you "is not a professional" and should shut up, and if he does not, he is full of "baloney". Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. But in my book it is just that. An opinion. Unless, of course, you have hard evidence to back it up that you haven't shared yet.
The feedback I am getting from a growing number of people who have bought the CD and tried it out shows that it is quite feasible to learn how to scrape, and to do so so effectively, without going to a workshop.
And having said that, I think most of us would agree that both scraping workshops, and "hard" material about scraping, have advantages and disadvantages, and that both have a useful - and complementary - role to play. I believe it would benefit the scraping community and help it grow, which is what we all want to see happen, if we could get ourselves to recognize that, and avoid putting down one in order to prop up the other.
Regards, Peregrin
__________________________
From websites:
circuitroots.com (In the Scraping Bibliography)
metalscraping.com. The other best illustrated account. Peregrin has put together a good website on hand scraping... He also offers for sale an expanded version of this material in CD-ROM format. It is an excellent presentation of the subject. (And he describes the construction of a "sensitive adjustable level" which I'm just going to have to make - it's brilliant.)"
mini-lathe.com
I recently received word from [peregrin] that he has created a new website www.metalscraping.com devoted to this craft. I took a look... and was really impressed by it - it's a step-by-step tutorial that will teach you all you need to know to get started in this interesting area of metal work.
home.scarlet.be/mini-draaien-frezen/engels/linken.html
Very comprehensive and useful site about scraping of machine parts"
From the thread "Scraping Information"
- Peregrin ...is perpetuating and propagating a nearly lost art and one that is - or should be - of galvanizing interest to any and all of us.
- ...One other thing I like about his approach and material is that he gets a lot of mileage out of some simple tools. He's posted about what amounts to a carrier for a precision level that makes it easy to use it for checking things or mapping ways that you might not have imagined. It's not a Kingway kit but it's partway there at a fraction of the price or effort... He's creative and realistic.
- As I had imagined, the thread drifted right off to questioning Peregrin's skills as a scraper... Some clarification is needed for sure, because... anybody who stumbled upon this thread would at least be tempted into doubting whether Peregrin's CD is a worthwhile investment or not.
- I just don't get how difficult it is to understand peregrin's background. He is/was a metalworker, got to know a master scraper, broached acquaintance with him, and basically became one of his apprentices. How on earth does this NOT qualify as being a "professional scraper"?
- Even if it turned out that Peregrin is a 100% self-taught amateur, would it make any difference? Scraping (at least where I live) is more and more a lost art... is something the great majority of people will be learning from the internet and/or some other source in literature...
- I bought the CD and found useful information or approaches I didn't find elsewhere... I was initially a little apprehensive of the .html format, but it did lend itself to photos that could be studied and mused on better than the videos. Gold is where you find it.
- I just bought his CD. I have had my ass handed to me many times over what I thought were strange, illogical (to me) setups, etc. I will have to admit the source from the land of Lamborghini and Claudia Cardinale was a major plus. Besides, I like the pictures.
Thread: Scraping Bibliography
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01-15-2014, 12:02 PM #41
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John or Mud wrote this, but i don't know how to highlight it...
Q.
Richard - In the Dapra scraping class description, it mentions an advanced course that includes scraping for steam pressure joints. How does that differ from scraping for machine ways? Flatter maybe?
_______________________________
A.
Yes it is. When I teach at Power plants and shipyards who want 90% to 100% contact so the steam doesn't escape you scrape the same way and then wet stone it so the points get spread out. They don't use a gasket as the steam will eat away the gasket and will leak. Hot steam squirting out would cut you in half because of the pressure and heat. They also scrape and stone hatches on submarines. The Navy loved the Canode ink on the ships as pranksters use to play games with the Dykem High Spot blue...lol...
You know Forrest should chime in here as he that is where i met him at the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard and I recall him telling me how they don't make steam generator housings a match fit. He can explain it to you. It is flat with the 100% contact but .....go ahead Forrest you explain please...
The PA class was a good one, we had so many good students....It was like many classes....the guys like Mud....are tired, hands hurting, back aching, frustrated and using their Anderson Scraper and until they are about to give up I hand them the Pro model scraper and it's like cutting butter.
I used the Anderson scraper when I was a kid because that and homemade was all we had....then when I was about 25 I bought a Sandvik and after a few years I modified it by adding (welding in) a 3" extension in the middle that made it more flexible. One great thing about a Sandvik you can grind the blade on all 4 sides, so you have different radius's and 8 total sides. Then when i became a DAPRA Rep in about 1990 I switched to the German Made Pro model that BIAX sells and used the 20-150 I stopped using the Sandvik. Got to scoot...Rich -
01-15-2014, 02:22 PM #42
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Not as bad as it seems. I've needed to buy a lot of academic textbooks through quite a long time in my life, and the prices are normally very high. Around $100 for a textbook was the norm, and I haven't done any tertiary studies for over 15+ years now. I'd expect them to be up around $150 or so now. It simply has to do with the numbers sold. Whereas a mainstream book may sell 100's of thousands, a specialist text may sell just 1% of that. They are then distributed through boutique distribution channels who mark the heck up of everything given their monopolistic position, and the poor sucker at the end of the chain cops it. A used book in new condition sadly won't be much different. Just to keep things in perspective, and illustrate the point, MH large print is some A$135, roughly double that if you want the accompanying CD (the latter a gouge if ever there was one!) Originally Posted by RC99
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01-15-2014, 05:45 PM #44
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I paid 35 € for mine.
I had a look at a central website for used books (ZVAB - Zentrales Verzeichnis Antiquarischer Bücher (antiquarische und vergriffene Bücher online bestellen)). None available in any language.
Nick -
Yes, the used books still command a very good price but the odd thing is that if you take that book you bought new last semester around to the store you bought it to sell back, it's only worth $8-10. It's a mystery to me where that value goes on sell-back, only to appear again at the used book table. Must be out for a smoke when I stop by. Originally Posted by Pete F
They are then distributed through boutique distribution channels who mark the heck up of everything given their monopolistic position, and the poor sucker at the end of the chain cops it. A used book in new condition sadly won't be much different.
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01-15-2014, 06:28 PM #46
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Yes I remember school book prices were expensive back in the day and no doubt today as well.... Originally Posted by Pete F
Not as bad as it seems. I've needed to buy a lot of academic textbooks through quite a long time in my life, and the prices are normally very high. Around $100 for a textbook was the norm, and I haven't done any tertiary studies for over 15+ years now.
But a book like this is only going to have a very limited market place.... Not a captive buyer that must buy the book as is the case for books for educational courses, which also become quickly out of date...
The sort of person interested in TMT is going to more then likely be a hobby type person with limited funds, and since there is a copy (albeit not a 100% fantastic one) for free download on the internet there is no need to drop a huge bundle of money on a hard copy...
I would pay $50 for an original copy of TMT, but not $150...
It would not surprise me if that seller saw this thread and has priced accordingly thinking the book is valuable and sought after, simply because it is out of print... -
There is an interesting point to copyrights here. Not judging, just highlighting a point. Originally Posted by RC99
It would not surprise me if that seller saw this thread and has priced accordingly thinking the book is valuable and sought after, simply because it is out of print...
When the original purchaser of book made the purchase, he could claim the reasonable expectation that the book might be worth something one day if he wanted to sell it. If still in print, as a used book. Iif not in print potential more due to scarcity. In either case this value is reduced/eliminated if the work is freely pirated. The point is it is incorrect to assume that breaking the law on copyright is ok if it's out of print because there is no victim. If under copyright, there are still victims: all those with legitimate copies and damages suffered are their losses in value with the book that happens when it is treated as if in the public domain. -
I'm afraid I can't agree with you there Richard. Obviously nobody can tell another what they "should" or "shouldn't" pay for anything, that's for the individual to decide; whether it be a book or anything for that matter. Textbooks for university, specialist study, etc are not necessarily always mandated by the course, there are others that one may choose to buy, simply because they find the subject matter of use. Clearly we all try to limit that as it gets very expensive and merely borrow from the library, but there are exceptions. Originally Posted by RC99
Yes I remember school book prices were expensive back in the day and no doubt today as well....
But a book like this is only going to have a very limited market place.... Not a captive buyer that must buy the book as is the case for books for educational courses, which also become quickly out of date...
The sort of person interested in TMT is going to more then likely be a hobby type person with limited funds, and since there is a copy (albeit not a 100% fantastic one) for free download on the internet there is no need to drop a huge bundle of money on a hard copy...
I would pay $50 for an original copy of TMT, but not $150...
It would not surprise me if that seller saw this thread and has priced accordingly thinking the book is valuable and sought after, simply because it is out of print...
I can't at all agree that this book is aimed at the hobbyist or enthusiast. I think we circulate on these forums and forget that we represent an extremely small sub-group of the overall market. The fact is the great majority of people will be of the "Harbor Fright" end of the market and to them a scraper is something used to get the burnt onion rings off the bbq plate! While scraping has found somewhat a renaissance amongst our field, largely as a result of internet forums in my opinion, machine tool rebuilding is nevertheless an extremely specialised field really only those at the top of their game are likely to be able to do truly successfully. As a result I would expect a text like this, Connelly, etc to be priced accordingly. The mere fact that it not reprinted basically says it all. Is it worth $150? Who can say. Neither of us are rushing out and buying it, so I guess not to us (partly because it's going to cost us around A$200 landed!
),
but honestly my humble opinion is that what they're asking isn't
outrageous either. As I said, MH will currently set you back some A$130
for the latest edition, and I've often seen specialist publications
asking many hundreds of dollars, used too. There's no right/wrong with
this, but I do think some people who aren't used to buying specialist
books don't fully appreciate just how much these types of books
typically cost. They're no Mills 'n' Boon paperback sadly.
As an aside, I don't think the pdf copy of the (earlier edition) is in fact complete.
As a complete digression, if you want to find "rip-offs" I'd reiterate that electronic version of MH. It will only work on one machine at a time IIRC, it's certainly not licensed for corporate use anyway. It slips in to the back cover of the paper MH book, so distribution costs are zero, and I bought the copyrighted material when I purchased the book. Yet they ask double the money for it. They're also just pdfs of the actual pages, so no special formatting etc was involved in making that electronic edition. -
01-16-2014, 03:03 AM #49
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Yes I agree, I was just saying his price is way out there IMO..... With the text books, I take it university courses have more competition for textbooks.. At high school it was buy the book or you do not go to school.....The entire class learns from the same book... Originally Posted by Pete F
I'm afraid I can't agree with you there Richard. Obviously nobody can tell another what they "should" or "shouldn't" pay for anything, that's for the individual to decide; whether it be a book or anything for that matter. Textbooks for university, specialist study, etc are not necessarily always mandated by the course, there are others that one may choose to buy, simply because they find the subject matter of use. Clearly we all try to limit that as it gets very expensive and merely borrow from the library, but there are exceptions.
True, but Connelly is still in print, and is not 83 years old... I bought the Connelly book, plus have a superb scanned copy in pdf format that AFAIK is not in common availability on the internet and I am not about to make it easily available either... I still think only enthuasists would be interested in TMT, anyone making machine tools would use the relevant JIS, DIN, SAE, BS, ISO, etc standards if they even cover the machines they make, since there is a huge variety of CNC machines out there these days...I can't at all agree that this book is aimed at the hobbyist or enthusiast. I think we circulate on these forums and forget that we represent an extremely small sub-group of the overall market. The fact is the great majority of people will be of the "Harbor Fright" end of the market and to them a scraper is something used to get the burnt onion rings off the bbq plate! While scraping has found somewhat a renaissance amongst our field, largely as a result of internet forums in my opinion, machine tool rebuilding is nevertheless an extremely specialised field really only those at the top of their game are likely to be able to do truly successfully. As a result I would expect a text like this, Connelly, etc to be priced accordingly. The mere fact that it not reprinted basically says it all. Is it worth $150? Who can say. Neither of us are rushing out and buying it, so I guess not to us (partly because it's going to cost us around A$200 landed!),
but honestly my humble opinion is that what they're asking isn't
outrageous either. As I said, MH will currently set you back some A$130
for the latest edition, and I've often seen specialist publications
asking many hundreds of dollars, used too. There's no right/wrong with
this, but I do think some people who aren't used to buying specialist
books don't fully appreciate just how much these types of books
typically cost. They're no Mills 'n' Boon paperback sadly.
I really have nothing but utter contempt for current copyright laws, I see no need for the huge length of protection they enjoy....
I could invent something purely simple but ahead of it's time and patent it.... I get what, 15 or 20 years protection.... If after that 20 years my invention becomes popular, stiff shit for me.... Everyone is free to copy.... If I draw a stick figure I get protection long after I die...
Why should something considered "art" be magically different that it lasts the life of the creator plus 70 years...
TMT was published in 1932.... 82 years ago, surely that was enough time to make your money out of it...
I have a contact that has availability to books in libraries located elsewhere... Looks like there is large numbers of the book available in AU libraries (just nothing locally), I may be able to borrow a copy for a short time... -
Yeah I agree, intellectual property copyright seems a nonsense when compared to patent laws if somebody invents a physical object, not to mention all the hoops needed to jump through to get the supposed patent protection.
Inter-library loans are normally possible, I believe our local library may charge a small fee for that, but it's not much. I'm not sure how it would apply to where you are however, but it's a service that's long been available anywhere I've lived, so I'd check with your closest library. Oh another thing I discovered the other day (only because a kind colleague told me), is that if you're a member of our library (he lived in the same general area), you can "borrow" their electronic editions of magazines. No idea how that worked, but if you subscribe to any magazine it could be something to look in to. Sorry all a bit of a diversion from the OT, but I'll share anything that means saving a quid!
Uni courses are much the same Richard, all working from the same core texts, but consider how many school kids within a state are doing a course in any year versus how many uni students just happen to be studying that subject and the lecturer just happened to decide that particular series of books would be the one he/she would use. There's no central body who declares what texts will be used. Needless to say often it's some obscure text that needs to be specially ordered ie "you ordered an arse reaming Sir?".
That TMT edition was the 8th edition, I didn't even know it went above 7th. Is there much difference between the editions? I have a very early copy too, and it's definitely much thinner. -
01-16-2014, 09:28 AM #51
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Richard-
Once I figured out who it was selling scraping items under the machine shop you used to use when selling on eBay, I also bought a 4' straight edge from you that was freshly scraped in the shop. It has been a few years.
Have been told I'm going to Cabin Fever, so would be delighted to meet. So far we were only planning for Saturday. But as it gets closer to the date, we'll see what else is possible. Thanks for the invite! -
Are you bringing any straightedge castings to sell? Hope to meet you there! Originally Posted by stephen thomas
Have been told I'm going to Cabin Fever,
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Baloney
Rich, I have not seen yet a response from you to my post (#40) from Wednesday. Is it that you decided that for it also "we" can see it is full of baloney so no answer is needed? If so, I for one would like to know how you arrived at that interesting conclusion. Or is it that you decided that no answer is needed because you agree with what I say?
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01-17-2014, 04:03 AM #54
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01-17-2014, 09:41 AM #55
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Peregrin, I missed post 40..... I don't read every post as I work for a living and am still rebuilding production machines tools in industry, not toys in the basement. I recall something member Heavy Metal once told me on here "if the shoe fits, wear it". I never even knew who started this thread until today when I read your post and looked. I have always encouraged people to teach scraping as long as they help people and not confuse them or give bad info. I have found that in this industry many people do it differently and many have opinions. Someone once said "opinions" are like A-holes....everyone has one and they all stink. LOL You are to sensitive my friend. Helping on here has a learning curve.
I was paranoid on here when I had 45 posts until people figured out who I was and I knew what I was talking about, I discover who the jerks were real fast.
By the way, I think I started writing on here ..hmmm maybe 3 or 4 years ago, but have been teaching scraping since around 1980. Started rebuilding professional manufacturing used machine tools full time in 1971, learned to scrape in the 60's, working on my summer vacations in my teens and on and off till 1971, from a Journeyman, my Dad the inventor of a famous scraping device called a King-Way Alignment instrument.
The forums are like a group of neighborhood of longtime friends and you're the new kid on the block. Honestly I never connected you to the thread until today. My friend Jan in Norway is teaching or showing on You-Tube and has only been scraping and inventing his testing devices or copying them from ones he saw someplace. He learned from reading the Connelly book, watching Nick on You-Tube, my class last spring and on his own trial and error. Experienced scrapers (some are pro's) like a number of us are on here can generally see from what a new comer writes if they know what they are talking about or full of it.
You sound like you have a love for rebuilding and want to share your opinion and experience. I really forgot who you were after the other thread where you showed pic's, talked about your DVD and several of us commented on it. I see you didn't forget, but i did. I do recall when I was new on here and when I read someone explaining how he rebuilt his Mini Mill or wood lathe it made me cringe with some of the info that was given out. I have learned to turn the other cheek and not get so paranoid.
The bottom line as I can see it is, read below.
I have always said and I believe I say it in my DVD I made 20 years ago or so. "There are many people in this world that know how to scrape, I don't care how as long as they get the same quality results in the same amount of time, that is all that counts." Happy Scraping. Rich -
01-17-2014, 09:45 AM #56
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Mud-
Every time I turn at Harrisburg and head down 83 with a load to Baltimore, I think "one of these trips I should figure out where Mud's place in Lancaster is and stop by" But you know how it goes, everything at the last minute and when going back home it is usually very late at night. So it would be great to finally meet in person. You've given me a lot of help over the years.
On the straight edges: Ever since the patterns were "stolen" by the foundry that bought out the remains of the one that had been doing the castings down near Pittsburg, I have not been able to get over the mental hump of agreeing to let them do another batch. I think I know where they are in NJ now, the the foundry should be a good one. But I would have to act pretty fast to have anything by Cabin Fever, but it is an interesting suggestion.
smt -
Mark, I'd like to very much. It is certainly my preference, which is why I did indeed choose to "let it rest" at various times, for example after Rich's rather substantial attack in his post #96 of the "Scraping Information" thread. But I don't see how I can continue to do so if, more and more, when I say "GA" Rich says, or implies, that "GA" is full of "baloney." Originally Posted by Mark Rand
Richard said FL, You're in GA. I'd let it rest if I were you.
I don't believe I have been saying that "FL" is full of "baloney." If I have, I certainly was out of line, and I would like to know how, and I'll be sure to stop. As I see it, things are not symmetrical. And while I'm all for letting it rest, for that to be fair, and productive, it has to be both ways. And best of all if everybody decides to do so.
What I would hope to see happen is to have relaxed, non-threatening conditions where anyone who wants to can feel safe to share what he believes can be useful, or what he would like to have input about, without concern about being clobbered because he disagrees with someone, or because his qualifications may not be up to some standard. Then things that are presented can be much better understood as they actually are, can be considered on their own merits, and when it is called for criticised in a constructive way, based on facts and not opinions, which it seems to me is the only way things can be brought forward and made better. If others also would like to see this, I hope they will come forward and say so.
I believe much good could come if more of us could get involved in this way, so we can keep it up over time. Because this is one of the best professional forums, I think it would be great if that could happen here. If it won't, we all will be loosing, and the scraping community most of all. -
01-17-2014, 10:21 AM #58
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Peregrin said
"I believe much good could come if more of us could get involved in this way, so we can keep it up over time. Because this is one of the best professional forums, I think it would be great if that could happen here. If it won't, we all will be loosing, and the scraping community most of all.[/QUOTE]"
My reply.
I said the same thing in so many words on here 3 or 4 years ago when I was new.....its a learning curve....relax......lifes to short to sweat it. Rich -
01-17-2014, 10:38 AM #59
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I have some camelback patterns I can send you...I said that in the PA class and changed my mind....I am just worried about loosing them too. They are family heirlooms as my Dad made the 3', 4', 5' and 6 foot ones and I made the 18" and 24". I can easily UPS the 18", 24" and 36" and possibly the 48" if someone can assure me they will treat them like gold. For the use of them to my friends on here i will charge a few casting made for me too for free. I suppose I can call my insurance agent and insure them, but still I worry. Sort of reminds me of what a friend at Kurt Mfg said to me when i asked to borrow an ociloscope several years ago. He said...it would be like lending me his wife..she would come back in good condition, but he just wouldn't feel right about it. LOL he didn't lend me it. Originally Posted by stephen thomas
Mud-
Every time I turn at Harrisburg and head down 83 with a load to Baltimore, I think "one of these trips I should figure out where Mud's place in Lancaster is and stop by" But you know how it goes, everything at the last minute and when going back home it is usually very late at night. So it would be great to finally meet in person. You've given me a lot of help over the years.
On the straight edges: Ever since the patterns were "stolen" by the foundry that bought out the remains of the one that had been doing the castings down near Pittsburg, I have not been able to get over the mental hump of agreeing to let them do another batch. I think I know where they are in NJ now, the the foundry should be a good one. But I would have to act pretty fast to have anything by Cabin Fever, but it is an interesting suggestion.
smt
I will lend them to who ever as long as they take care of them as if they were my family.....lol
One of the guys in the PA had a scraped King-Way HKA-48 in super scraped 40 PPI condition he said he bought for $40.00 off CL or Ebay...made me ill as I probably sold it to who ever for $3000.00. I didn't serialize them...i wish I had so I know who bought it. It was painted DAPRA Green, so they must have bought it from me and resold it. I stopped making straight-edges as no one wanted to pay for them. Everyone wants a deal you know. Rich
I'm out of here, need to go make some money. -
01-17-2014, 11:04 AM #60
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Rich, about 20 yrs ago I designed the ones I (used to
) sell on the principle of having a tool a guy could machine in a pinch
on *many* BP or similar 42" table machines, and yet still be just about
long enough to do most of the way surfaces on same machine, with
careful work. They include the dovetail feature that many who don't
have prisms find useful. They are a bit heavy for all around work, but
they are a compact tool in a useful size for a lot of stuff on BP size
machines. They are wide enough to do column ways in one hit. (subject
to user/maker leaving them full width - can be nachined a little
narrower to remove some weight)
Here's the "old style" solid base.
The base can be machined and scraped to any section. Including Vee/inverted Vee, and sharp 44 - 45° included angle edge or greater.
Here's the "old" style pattern/matchboard, I'm getting ready to duplicate it to make the lightweight pattern:
Here's the lightweight version. It's almost 10 lbs lighter.
This was a reject casting I sectioned to show the difference.
This is the matchboard pattern, before painting.
Unfortunately, the "lightweight" pattern can be machined/scraped to a 49°/50° dovetail for say a BP; but there is not quite enough metal to go all the way down to 45°. The heavy casting has to be used for that.
smt
Thread: Scraping Bibliography
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So when is the next run, Stephen? Prior to the much-anticipated Scrapefest in B.C.? Originally Posted by stephen thomas
Rich, about 20 yrs ago I designed the ones I (used to
) sell on the principle of having a tool a guy could machine in a pinch
on *many* BP or similar 42" table machines, and yet still be just about
long enough to do most of the way surfaces on same machine, with
careful work.<>
smt I am only half-joking here....
Denis -
Baloney
Rich, I enjoyed very much reading your last (now #55) post. In fact, it made my day.
Lets see, I am rebuilding toys in the basement. I confuse people and/or give them bad info. My opinions stink. (How about yours?). I am too sensitive. I am paranoid. I am a jerk. I'm the new kid on the block. You make the Forums sound like a Fraternity I need to be initiated into in order to be accepted. I'm a newcomer who does not know what he's talking about, and is full of it. Of course those are only the highlights...
Or perhaps I am too sensitive and paranoid, so I misunderstood your post, and you did not mean to imply that any of that had anything to do with me. If that is the case, I hope you will say so clearly, so it will be on record, everyone will know it, and it will dispell any possible misinterpretation.
Actually on further thought I must indeed have misunderstood your post, because not too far back you said: "I am welcoming him to the profession of teaching scraping... It is obvious to me he is not self taught and has had some training." And you could not possibly have changed your mind about me that much in so short a time without more reasons than you have shared with us.
BTW, as I have said elsewhere, I learned to scrape in the 50's and (I may not have said that) taught it in the 60's, which happens to be a number of years before you did. Not that is makes any difference to me, nor do I think it should to anyone else. And it certainly should have nothing to do with the merits of what I post. But I could not resist mentioning it, as long as we seem to be playing that game.
Cheers! -
01-17-2014, 12:37 PM #63
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I was speaking in general......You need to relax.......I didn't mean you were any of those things accept the mini mill in the basement, I made that crack after what you said, sorry....... In my opinion You are like a kid looking for a fight and taking everything you read out of context to reinforce in your mind I am your enemy. I think in the one article or You-Tube you were testing a Rung-Fo mini mill or some import. I believe Lazlo or someone else pointed that out to the forum, not me. I think you said you learned in Italy from a pro and later you developed your unique way of scraping, tests and DVD. I'm not looking for an argument. You started the crabby stuff, not me. In my post where I mentioned someone else who in my opinion is fake. It surely was not you. I never mentioned GA as you have not grasped .
This has been a fun thread until you went off on me...I'm not sure what your after....but I could care less as i said it's my opinion. I was trying to help a new member with 45 posts understand how the forum works, in my opinion, then you go nuts on me???. I am going to put you on ignore now as you have a chip on your shoulder and must read and re-read everything I say and t sounds as if your printing out everything if you know what I said in the other post months ago.
Now I know why Forrest has not offered his help on the scraping of the steam fits as he is an expert on that.
Sorry to the other members for this crap. RichLast edited by Richard King; 01-17-2014 at 08:35 PM.
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01-17-2014, 03:09 PM #64
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Just a question, with the proliferation of fairly easy to make CNC routers for working wood, would not pattern making be far easier today then at any time in the past?
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Drop this now, you're making yourself look like an idiot. If you want to carry on an internet flamewar, take it to private messaging. Originally Posted by peregrin
Rich, I enjoyed very much reading your last (now #55) post. In fact, it made my day.
Lets see, I am rebuilding toys in the basement. I confuse people and/or give them bad info. My opinions stink. (How about yours?). I am too sensitive. I am paranoid. I am a jerk. I'm the new kid on the block. You make the Forums sound like a Fraternity I need to be initiated into in order to be accepted. I'm a newcomer who does not know what he's talking about, and is full of it. Of course those are only the highlights...
Or perhaps I am too sensitive and paranoid, so I misunderstood your post, and you did not mean to imply that any of that had anything to do with me. If that is the case, I hope you will say so clearly, so it will be on record, everyone will know it, and it will dispell any possible misinterpretation.
Actually on further thought I must indeed have misunderstood your post, because not too far back you said: "I am welcoming him to the profession of teaching scraping... It is obvious to me he is not self taught and has had some training." And you could not possibly have changed your mind about me that much in so short a time without more reasons than you have shared with us.
BTW, as I have said elsewhere, I learned to scrape in the 50's and (I may not have said that) taught it in the 60's, which happens to be a number of years before you did. Not that is makes any difference to me, nor do I think it should to anyone else. And it certainly should have nothing to do with the merits of what I post. But I could not resist mentioning it, as long as we seem to be playing that game.
Cheers!
Like it or not, you are the new boy here and with posts like this, you *are* coming across as an over-sensitive and thin skinned person. I do NOT want to know.
PDW -
Originally Posted by RC99
Just a question, with the proliferation of fairly easy to make CNC routers for working wood, would not pattern making be far easier today then at any time in the past?
Yes, the foundry I use actually has a 3D CNC mill they use for making patterns out of MDF. Stack & glue sections together to get to whatever thickness desired.
If I'd known that before I made my parallel beam straight edge patterns by hand - I wouldn't have.
PDW -
Mate here's some advice, take it or leave it as you choose. You ARE the new kid here, accept that and work to establish a reputation for giving reliable advice. We all have our unique ways of communicating, and you will need to find yours, but in general BS isn't accepted in a forum such as this. If you want to sprout off about what an amazing background you have in this field, you can probably eww and ahh the guys on a home shop forum. Originally Posted by peregrin
Rich, I enjoyed very much reading your last (now #55) post. In fact, it made my day.
Lets see, I am rebuilding toys in the basement. I confuse people and/or give them bad info. My opinions stink. (How about yours?). I am too sensitive. I am paranoid. I am a jerk. I'm the new kid on the block. You make the Forums sound like a Fraternity I need to be initiated into in order to be accepted. I'm a newcomer who does not know what he's talking about, and is full of it. Of course those are only the highlights...
Or perhaps I am too sensitive and paranoid, so I misunderstood your post, and you did not mean to imply that any of that had anything to do with me. If that is the case, I hope you will say so clearly, so it will be on record, everyone will know it, and it will dispell any possible misinterpretation.
Actually on further thought I must indeed have misunderstood your post, because not too far back you said: "I am welcoming him to the profession of teaching scraping... It is obvious to me he is not self taught and has had some training." And you could not possibly have changed your mind about me that much in so short a time without more reasons than you have shared with us.
BTW, as I have said elsewhere, I learned to scrape in the 50's and (I may not have said that) taught it in the 60's, which happens to be a number of years before you did. Not that is makes any difference to me, nor do I think it should to anyone else. And it certainly should have nothing to do with the merits of what I post. But I could not resist mentioning it, as long as we seem to be playing that game.
Cheers!
Secondly, the scraping examples you used WERE from a toy lathe you scraped in your basement. FFS, why not take a worn beater at rebuild that instead of trying to polish a turd, however that was your decision, but please don't try to pretend otherwise. Nobody on this forum is, to my knowledge, blind. We can see what you're scraping.
Finally, it seems to me the majority of your posts here have been a rather less than transparent attempt to draw attention to the DVD you've made on this topic. Here's some news, I highly doubt you're ever going to get rich on the proceeds of that. If it gives you a bit of "beer money" each week, that's great. But this is not the Home Shopping Network and I'm certainly tired of your repeated "infomercials" on yourself, your supposed background, and btw did I tell you I have a dvd for sale. Let it go, chill a little, and it will happen.
We all need to establish a reputation and we will all have detractors. I was once accused of doing nothing more than "polishing machines" (the irony was it was penned by somebody who produced absolutely nothing other than excuses), at first I got angry, but even I could see in the end it was such an ironic statement I began to laugh about it. In the end I laughed so hard about it I had it as my signature on my posts until the moderator made me take it down. If you're as good as you say you are, you don't need to spruik your wares here, just help out guys as they need it and people will see that the only way you could have known that is by having done it. It all takes time, so chill a little in the meanwhile.
Pete -
Ok, I finally got it.
When Rich "Welcomed me to the profession of teaching scraping..." I had not yet figured out that there was a Welcoming Committee, and that Rich was in charge of it. And I did not say "Jawohl", like a good new kid on the block was expected to. So the "welcome" was speedily withdrawn (Rich never explained why, and he is no longer reading my posts, so we'll never know), and all the rest followed.
In my last post in answer to Mark Rand, I said:
"What I would hope to see happen is to have relaxed, non-threatening conditions where anyone who wants to can feel safe to share what he believes can be useful, or what he would like to have input about, without concern about being clobbered because he disagrees with someone, or because his qualifications may not be up to some standard. Then things that are presented can be much better understood as they actually are, can be considered on their own merits, and when it is called for criticised in a constructive way, based on facts and not opinions, which it seems to me is the only way things can be brought forward and made better. If others also would like to see this, I hope they will come forward and say so.
I believe much good could come if more of us could get involved in this way, so we can keep it up over time. Because this is one of the best professional forums, I think it would be great if that could happen here. If it won't, we all will be loosing, and the scraping community most of all."
My cardinal sin, I can see now, was to propose that we consider things not on the basis of opinions or "Seniority", but on their own merits. And - horror - to suggest that people who would like that, come forward and say so.
The last especially was threatening enough that it had to be nipped in the bud pronto. So Rich, even though the post was not addressed to him, and he had just told us how busy he is, jumped in immediately and took it upon himself to answer it -- quoting only the second paragraph, which without the first looses all the meaning of what I was saying -- with "I said the same thing in so many words on here 3 or 4 years ago when I was new.....its a learning curve....relax......lifes to short to sweat it." In other words, "forget it."
Clearly what I was proposing most likely will not be allowed to happen here, whether people would like it or not. Therefore, regretfully, and as PDW recommended, I'm "dropping it". (This forum, not my work).
I want to thank all those who gave useful and objective input, and anyone who wants to reach me is very welcome to do so at my email address, peregrin at metalscraping dot com.
As Douglas Adams said in a different context, "Goodby, and thanks for all the fish."
Peregrin
---------------------------
"The dogs may bark, but the caravan moves on" - Sufi Proverb -
01-17-2014, 10:15 PM #69
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01-18-2014, 08:51 AM #70
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Originally Posted by stephen thomas
Rich, about 20 yrs ago I designed the ones I (used to
) sell on the principle of having a tool a guy could machine in a pinch
on *many* BP or similar 42" table machines, and yet still be just about
long enough to do most of the way surfaces on same machine, with
careful work. They include the dovetail feature that many who don't
have prisms find useful. They are a bit heavy for all around work, but
they are a compact tool in a useful size for a lot of stuff on BP size
machines. They are wide enough to do column ways in one hit. (subject
to user/maker leaving them full width - can be nachined a little
narrower to remove some weight)
Here's the "old style" solid base.
The base can be machined and scraped to any section. Including Vee/inverted Vee, and sharp 44 - 45° included angle edge or greater.
Here's the "old" style pattern/matchboard, I'm getting ready to duplicate it to make the lightweight pattern:
Here's the lightweight version. It's almost 10 lbs lighter.
This was a reject casting I sectioned to show the difference.
This is the matchboard pattern, before painting.
Unfortunately, the "lightweight" pattern can be machined/scraped to a 49°/50° dovetail for say a BP; but there is not quite enough metal to go all the way down to 45°. The heavy casting has to be used for that.
smt
Stephen that is a pretty impressive Straightedge. Reminds me of some i saw in England several years ago. There used to be a company in California who called Cloverleaf i believe who made hollow triangle straight-edges. I use to see them when I taught in the west. My dad's straight-edges are lighter then many of the other brands. When he started his career he said There was Brown and Sharpe, Challenge and Bush he used and they were all pretty heavy. He used to say it took a small boy and a man to pick-up a Bushe and i agree. I had heard of 2 other guys who made them over the past couple of years; Greg Dermer out west and Craig Donges in Ohio. Greg brought a couple to a class he attended and they were sweet. Allan up at the Ashland class had some he bought from Craig and they both like your Stephen look good. They told me they bought the casting for $200.00 I think. That cheap I don't like to hassle having some of mine made.
My Dad said he would compare his straight-edge design against the other brands the old fashion way. He would set them outside when it was below zero up here in MN and bring them back in and see which one tested flat first. ha ha...he said his always warmed faster and tested better because they were lighter and designed like a parallel. I will try to pull one out later and snap a picture. I haven't mass produced them in years and the patterns are just up on a shelf in my shop. When I planned my straightedges I laid the down on the table as my old planer cut straighter feeding down on, plus I could do the angle all in one set-up. It is nice and brings back memories of the sound of cast getting planned the old fashion way. If you step back and think about it, using these historical machines to do things, making straight-edges the old fashion way keeps the "ART" in the trade. Thanks. Rich
PS: But I still prefer to power scrape then hand-scraping the old fashion way..lol -
02-14-2014, 04:45 AM #71
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Some people may be interested in what is in this thread here in case you do not visit that forum -->> Testing Machine Tools pdf
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02-15-2014, 04:46 AM #73
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No worries, thanks for the kind words... Originally Posted by TGTool
Thanks, I appreciate the effort and contribution.
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Funny this video would get brought up. I contacted Brian a couple of weeks ago about perhaps getting a class or a lesson on scraping. Originally Posted by rustygreen
The K&J video is a good one that I hadn't seen:
K & J Scraping Training Video - YouTube
In the comments everyone is asking: what are the orange and black contrast pigments he's using? My guess is red lead for the orange (hence not saying what it is). But does anyone know what he's using on the plate for black? It really shows up beautifully in the video.
K&J was his shop. One of his customers hired him and he can no longer have classes or lessons, Which is a shame. He seemed like a very cool guy and was willing to help with any small project if I needed help.
Shame, I forgot to ask about the rub. I'll shoot him an email.
On that note: Is there Detroit area ever going to get a scrapping class? Theirs many of us here!Last edited by Monomer; 02-16-2014 at 11:38 PM. Reason: ...words
- [machinist] Scraping Bibliography, Lawrence London, 02/17/2014
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