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[machinist] Schaublin 102N spindle bearing maintenance?
- From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
- To: machinist@lists.ibiblio.org
- Subject: [machinist] Schaublin 102N spindle bearing maintenance?
- Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 04:56:37 -0500
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/schaublin-cazeneuve-weiler-graziano-mori-seiki-lathes/schaublin-102n-spindle-bearing-maintenance-276493/
Thread: Schaublin 102N spindle bearing maintenance?
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Schaublin 102N spindle bearing maintenance?
Specifically for the backgeared, open (for workbench mounted motor), square head machine.
In Passion-Usinage's 102N maintenance manual the procedure and drawings refer to the closed head model. The model with the motor in the base. That makes the procedure a little unclear because the part number call-outs in the text do not match the drawing, and the drawing is not quite correct for my headstock version. Part no. 105.26.000
The above drawing is for Part. no 105.27.000
The manual states that the bearings must be lubricated every five years with Kluber Isofix LDS 18 A. The lubrication procedure is given as:
So...
1) Exactly what is this oil of turpentine?
2) How does one lube the countershaft bearings? Is there a trick to non-destructively remove the pressed retainer, part no -26.078?
3) Must the M10x25 screw in the center step of the pulley cone be taken loose? For the backgeared head it is not mentioned in the documentation.
4) Are there any Gotchas with respect to trapped parts, or does the spindle just slide out the nose end once removing the end caps and the center piece (at the back side of the reduction gear housing)?
Have any members here done this procedure?
Thanx
<jbc>
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Hi,
In manufacturing, turpentine(made out of resin in pine trees) oil is used in soap and cosmetics and also as a paint solvent. Painters used this to make their oil-paint colors thinner/more fluid. It dilutes grease but leaves a protective oil-like film. Available at the drugstore/grocery or a seller of artpainters supplies?!?
Haven't got an 102N though....
Regards,
Max -
12-08-2013, 07:31 PM #3
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jbc - email / PM me. I can forward a much better resolution image of your diagram which includes the side views. The one I have is also noted as being applicable to 105-26, -27, -32 and -33. For the removal of the countershaft "retainer" you mention, there is an M6 x 12 length set-screw which holds the retainer fast. You can loosen the set screw from the bottom of the headstock when removed from the lathe bed. The drawing I have will make it clear for you.
I've only ever disassembled a 102 -- never a 102N. Is the countershaft not lubricated by an open oil bath on the 102N? On the earlier 102 design, the gearbox bath lubricates everything except for the two, specific spindle bearings. The drive pulley bearing, the countershaft bearings, the plain bearing the drive pulley rotates on the spindle with... all are ultimately lubricated by the open gearing bath. The reduction gears spray the oil about and into everything. This is why in the 102 manual it is specifically mentioned to run the headstock in backgear every so often. If the drive is continuously left in direct drive, not all of the bearings have a route to receive oil.
Once again, my knowledge is really limited to the 102 for disassembly, but the 102N seems to be the same in this respect. There are two screws on the drive pulley. One is marked "to tighten when dividing." This should be left loose as it normally is when running the lathe. Otherwise the screw bears on the spindle and will discourage its removal. The other screw is of no consequence. It retains position and installation of the plain bearing within the drive pulley. The plain bearing is a very close clearance fit on the spindle OD.
Lastly, I have not done the angular roller bearings, but I have done the procedure outlined in the manual for the angular contact ball bearings of the accessory milling spindle. The photos are in the "SchaublinLathes" yahoo group. The mixture with turpentine is to thin the grease. The turpentine then evaporates and leaves a consistent (if mixed thoroughly initially), thin layer on the bearings. I found it extremely helpful to heat the turpentine / grease mixture. I just used a few incandescent bulbs to do it because I didn't have a hot plate handy. This allows the two to mix into suspension and prevents a "globby" coating on the immersed bearing. Once again, this is all documented in the yahoo group photos.
Have a look here at a complete 102 headstock disassembly: 102 Backgeared Headstock Maintenance. The "gotcha" I found is with the backgear lever. It better be in position & installed during the spindle installation or it makes for a bitch to install afterwards... and make sure it isn't installed backwards either
Been there; done that. Regretted it. Doh!
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Thanks so much Arthur.
The funny thing about turpentine is that the word is as descriptive as alcohol, in that there are so many types. What kind of turpentine are they on about. Regular old aromatic painters turpentine? I have always used lacquer thinner for rinsing bearings, and the procedure of using a solvent as a vehicle for applying grease is new to me. The Kluber grease is incredibly expensive, so I would like to be sure the turpentine I use to dissolve it doesn't somehow ruin its properties.
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12-09-2013, 06:26 AM #5
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My French language 102n manual calls for benzine rectifiee to mix up with the Kluber, which is easily bought at any drugstore here. The headstock diagram has some different part numbers than the above, I can see if I can scan it in two parts that would be readable. Maybe they will correspond better. From the heads I've seen the only real difference between bottom and back drive is the bottom drive heads have a simple plate bolted on the back to cover the pulley. I've done the older round heads, no real mysteries encountered, and been in the shop when a 102N head had its bearings replaced. I just recall that the N seemed simpler overall- certainly when it comes to adjusting preload. Somehow the (since fired) machinist managed to cook the new expensive bearings. He had a knack for cooking expensive things though.
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12-09-2013, 06:56 AM #6
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Here are some scans from my manual- sent you the larger file size to your email <jbc>. Tried to overlap enough for you to piece them together correctly.
I think the only tricky thing with this head is dealing with the angular contacts themselves, which is always tricky. Be surgically clean, especially when mixing up your Kluber goop bath. Try heating it a bit as Arthur suggested, I found that mixing it with rectified benzine takes ages and there were still little clumps of undissolved grease here and there. Make sure the bearings are absolutely clean when you dip them in the bath, or you will get them in, see the bath change color around the races, and toss out a whole mess of expensive grease and start over. -
I'm really lost in translation here guys.
Originally Posted by Screwmachine
My French language 102n manual calls for benzine rectifiee to mix up with the Kluber,
Disambiguation between 'benzine rectifeé' and 'oil of turpentine' is my principle question. I though benzine rectifeé was white spirits, which a petroleum product, while turpentine is a distillate of pine tars.
Which is correct to use? -
12-09-2013, 09:12 AM #8
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Benzine and turpentine are totally different things. Does someone have a German language manual? I bet it says benzine as well. Maybe Schaublin got mixed up in translating? I have a feeling the solvent doesn't matter too much as long as it thins out the grease and evaporates completely; which I doubt turpentine does.
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12-09-2013, 01:25 PM #9
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12-09-2013, 06:45 PM #10
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There are two types of turpentine as far as I know, one is plant based and made by distilling pine tree sap to get artist's turpentine ( the residue in the boiler is "Rosin" for violins, cowboy lassos and rosin cored solder). The other type is mineral oil based turpentine made from distilling crude oil: I suspect this is the type they are recommending as it evaporates fairly readily and should leave no oily residue behind once evaporated. Gasoline is less refined and leaves a greasy oily stain behind, although what we refer to as "Shellite" (Naptha) in Australia is really a highly refined solvent that evaporates very quickly and leaves very little residue if any.
In any case I expect you'd want a solvent that liquifies the grease and then completely evaporates leaving no residue behind to interfere with the grease.
Is "Oil of turpentine" a loose translation of "Mineral oil turpentine"?. "Rectifying Spirits" is when you distill spirits repeatedly, which suggests fractional distilling of crude oil. -
12-09-2013, 07:59 PM #11
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Hmmm... it's beginning to sound like when I did it I used the wrong stuff: MSDS - Pure Gum Spirits Turpentine.
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12-09-2013, 08:05 PM #12
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I know rosin is classed chemically as a form of solid acids (from a rosin fumes hazard article) which is why it has it's cleaning, fluxing properties for solder when hot, I don't know if artist's turps is similarly acidic though. What happens if you heat a bit in a tray, does it leave any gummy solid residues that might interfere with lubrication, or does it evaporate completely?. Originally Posted by Arthur.Marks
Hmmm... it's beginning to sound like when I did it I used the wrong stuff: MSDS - Pure Gum Spirits Turpentine. -
12-09-2013, 08:19 PM #13
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12-09-2013, 08:27 PM #14
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Here's what's in benzine legere (according to knowledgeable chemists I spoke to here i.e. druggists essentially identical to benzine rectifiee): Originally Posted by Arthur.Marks
I would perform the test, but I do not have any to try. My bearing lubrication was a couple years ago. The turp' is long used up. It also now sounds like Naphtha (MSDS) may be a more suitable solvent. A highly refined petroleum solvent is benzene rectifeé, is it not?
Naphtha (petroleum), hydrotreated light (F,Xn,N; R11-38-51/53-65-
67) > 96 %
CAS-Nr: 64742-49-0 EINECS-Nr: 265-151-9 EC-Nr: 650-001-01-8
n-Hexane (Xn,F,N; R11-38-48/20-51/53-62-65-67; H225-361f-373-
304-315-336-411) < 4 %
CAS-Nr: 110-54-3 EINECS-Nr: 203-777-6 EC-Nr: 601-037-00-0
So naptha looks like a pretty good bet.SAG 180 and Arthur.Marks like this. -
12-10-2013, 10:37 AM #15
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What I would do is to contact Schaublin to find out what they use. One gets used to the idea that most of the machines we are dealing with here are orphans, but the 102N isn't.
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12-10-2013, 10:41 AM #16
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Wow. Can't get more specific than that, Screwmachine
After a little more investigation, I doubt one could even procure
actual Benzene (to make true Benzene Rectifeé) outside of a lab
environment. It seems to be a really potent carcinogen. I wonder if
part of the change in terminology in the 102N manuals is due to the
same. I now get the impression benzine legere is just a 'cleaner' version of the naphtha I linked to above. While my link does not stipulate the 4% impurity, benzine legere specifically does -- and one with a very high evaporation rate.
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Yes of course. Originally Posted by John Bicht
What I would do is to contact Schaublin to find out what they use.
But discussing the issue with Schaublin or their representatives can become an expensive proposition.
And bringing the topic for discussion in the forum allows more people to benefit from the information.
In the States I'm pretty sure that Naphtha is sold as Coleman white gas (for mantel lanterns).
Looking at the MSDS for Turpentine I note that it is 100% volatile. So it is probably OK, and I suppose Arthur's machine has many trouble free spindle hours.
In Naphtha's favor it has a lower vapor pressure and it costs less than half as Turpentine. -
12-10-2013, 11:13 AM #18
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BenzEne is something different again. It's the nasty one (well, not that you want to expose yourself to any solvents too much). Never tried to buy it here as I haven't had any need for it, but I bet the drugstore would sell it. Drugstores here are awesome, can still get all sorts of stuff that would get you put on a list for asking in the U.S.
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12-10-2013, 11:55 AM #19
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Ah. I did notice there was a letter difference. I should have been more keen of the significance. Chemistry terminology looks like a mess of confusion without stipulating every substance by molecular composition or CAS #!! For druggists, that is one familial benefit I can draw on. My father owns a compounding pharmacy. If I provide a CAS No. and there is no law prohibiting it, I have wide access to chemical suppliers through him. In fact, that's how I get my favorite, general lubricating oil without paying out the nose: Starrett 1620, Tool and Instrument Oil. But don't get me wrong. I do truly respect that my chemistry knowledge is elementary -- if present at all. Given the chance, I'll stick to a widely available commercial substitute. FWIW, the spindle I lubricated has no perceptible drag. It's been good for a number of years with no complaint even if I did use turpentine
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- [machinist] Schaublin 102N spindle bearing maintenance?, Lawrence London, 12/27/2013
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