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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Using Human Waste (Joan Vibert)
2. Re: Using Human Waste (
shashi.pkumar@wipro.com)
3. Re: Livingontheland Digest, Vol 256, Issue 4 (John D'hondt)
4. Re: Using Human Waste (John D'hondt)
5. Re: Using Human Waste (Tommy Tolson)
6. the Family Farmer (Tradingpost)
7. Re: Using Human Waste (Dieter Brand)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 07:38:00 -0500
From: Joan Vibert <
joan@windwalkerfarm.com>
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
<
livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Using Human Waste
Message-ID: <C86EF758.83DEB%
joan@windwalkerfarm.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Paul - our thoughts are with you ? I feel like we know you from all the
emails and comments. You have given us such valued resources to learn from
and with which to continue our sustainable lifestyles. Thank you and take
care.
Joan
Windwalker Farm
Homewood, Kansas
> From: Tradingpost <
tradingpost@lobo.net>
> Reply-To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
> <
livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 23:17:37 -0600
> To: <
livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Using Human Waste
>
>
> Yes, in normal living we're exposed to pathogens all our lives.
>
> It's been a rough week with my wife/partner in hospital here, and my daughter
> taken off life support in FL today leaving a nine month old baby.
>
> paul
tradingpost@lobo.net>
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>
> On 7/22/2010 at 12:33 PM Dieter Brand wrote:
>
>> I absolutely agree, pathogens are not a problem. I have used our
>> humanure for nearly 10 years and never had a problem. I let it compost
>> with dry leaves, saw dust, soil, grass, weeds or whatever is available.
>> After a few months it turns into crumbly soil that smells as good forest
>> soil (probably because of the leaves). I usually wait for two years
>> before I use it on root vegetables or things like salads that are eaten
>> raw just to be on the safe side. I would never use night soil from other
>> households or from the city because people consume all sorts of
>> pharmaceuticals and pour chemicals down the drain. I even separate the
>> toilet paper because of the bleaching agents.
>>
>> The human body and our surroundings contain billions of microbes, most are
>> beneficial, a few are potential pathogens when the conditions are right,
>> but our immune system even needs these potential pathogens to build its
>> defenses. There is only about half a dozen of dangerous pathogens like
>> tuberculoses that are always harmful, but most of these have been
>> eradicated in the West.
>>
>> Dieter Brand
>> Portugal
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed, 7/21/10, John D'hondt <
dhondt@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> From: John D'hondt <
dhondt@eircom.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Using Human Waste
>>> To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
>> <
livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Date: Wednesday, July 21, 2010, 10:15 PM
>>>
>>> In my experience I think that pathogens are not at all a
>>> problem. We have a septic tank overflowing into a small
>>> water purification area. I have seen all kinds of animals
>>> drink from that water at different places and not one sign
>>> of disease has been seen.
>>> Under good circumstances pathogens are eaten out of a
>>> living by an overwhelming mass of non pathogens. The only
>>> way you can select for pathogens is by using man made
>>> chemicals that often kill off the others. And onfortunately
>>> that is the paradigm we have been fed with our mother's
>>> milk. Don't try to kill bacteria for you will fail and don't
>>> be too clean so as to keep plenty of non pathogen species on
>>> standby.
>>>
>>> The water that comes out of the wetland shows no signs of
>>> nitrate or phosphate loss. It is clear and even in little
>>> pools no algae show up.
>>>
>>> We harvest plants like comfrey and bullrush there and maybe
>>> 10 more species for animal food. Again never seen a problem
>>> and how could it? Pathogens are not taken up by plants in a
>>> cold swamp to be transported to an edible part. That simply
>>> does not happen.
>>> john
>>>
>>>> Several people on the list have mentioned the use of
>>> human waste for agricultural purposes. I'm interested in
>>> what peoples experience has been with this and what kinds of
>>> precautions people are taking to break the pathogen-human
>>> cycles in order to avoid disease transmission. The World
>>> health Organization has done a lot of work on this and their
>>> guidelines are available online.
>>
http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/wastewater/gsuww/en/index.html>>>>
>>>> This appears to me to be one of the crucial linkages
>>> that will have to be established in a steady state economy.
>>> Nutrient recycling is a fundamental ecosystem
>>> function/service which must be integrated in the closed
>>> human-earth system. Of course pathogens have evolved to
>>> exploit this system and we have to assure a reasonable level
>>> of safety.
>>>>
>>>> Phil Bunch
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
>
Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:16:28 +0530
From: <
shashi.pkumar@wipro.com>
To: <
livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Using Human Waste
Message-ID:
<
C037A228E2155B408E90822BF6EA059D0AD432E3@BLR-EC-MBX08.wipro.com">
C037A228E2155B408E90822BF6EA059D0AD432E3@BLR-EC-MBX08.wipro.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
The Humanure Handbook - Provides comprehensive details regarding
handling of human waste.
Online downloadable copy available at
http://weblife.org/humanure/HTH
Regards
Shashi
-----Original Message-----
From:
livingontheland-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org[mailto:
livingontheland-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
pbunch@cox.netSent: Friday, July 23, 2010 5:38 PM
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Using Human Waste
Are there unpleasant odors associated with the early stages of
composting? My wife is going to be renting rooms to tourists at the
finca and we need to keep the aesthetics in line with that service :-)
Also becoming old codgers we don't want to commit to a system that would
require a lot of physical effort we cannot depend upon ourselves to
provide at some point. This would include moving the resources far
enough away from the house to avoid odors. Also is your composting
thermophilic?
With regard to the spread of pathogens this depends on the presence of
the critter, the density and susceptibility of the population, and a
means of transmission. These are fairly easy to manage on a small scale
and in relative isolation but when communities become involved things
change rapidly. It sounds to me like you are well aware of these issues.
Phil
---- Dieter Brand <
diebrand@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I absolutely agree, pathogens are not a problem. I have used our
humanure for nearly 10 years and never had a problem. I let it compost
with dry leaves, saw dust, soil, grass, weeds or whatever is available.
After a few months it turns into crumbly soil that smells as good forest
soil (probably because of the leaves). I usually wait for two years
before I use it on root vegetables or things like salads that are eaten
raw just to be on the safe side. I would never use night soil from
other households or from the city because people consume all sorts of
pharmaceuticals and pour chemicals down the drain. I even separate the
toilet paper because of the bleaching agents.
>
> The human body and our surroundings contain billions of microbes, most
are beneficial, a few are potential pathogens when the conditions are
right, but our immune system even needs these potential pathogens to
build its defenses. There is only about half a dozen of dangerous
pathogens like tuberculoses that are always harmful, but most of these
have been eradicated in the West.
>
> Dieter Brand
> Portugal
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 7/21/10, John D'hondt <
dhondt@eircom.net> wrote:
>
> > From: John D'hondt <
dhondt@eircom.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Using Human Waste
> > To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
<
livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Date: Wednesday, July 21, 2010, 10:15 PM
> >
> > In my experience I think that pathogens are not at all a
> > problem. We have a septic tank overflowing into a small
> > water purification area. I have seen all kinds of animals
> > drink from that water at different places and not one sign
> > of disease has been seen.
> > Under good circumstances pathogens are eaten out of a
> > living by an overwhelming mass of non pathogens. The only
> > way you can select for pathogens is by using man made
> > chemicals that often kill off the others. And onfortunately
> > that is the paradigm we have been fed with our mother's
> > milk. Don't try to kill bacteria for you will fail and don't
> > be too clean so as to keep plenty of non pathogen species on
> > standby.
> >
> > The water that comes out of the wetland shows no signs of
> > nitrate or phosphate loss. It is clear and even in little
> > pools no algae show up.
> >
> > We harvest plants like comfrey and bullrush there and maybe
> > 10 more species for animal food. Again never seen a problem
> > and how could it? Pathogens are not taken up by plants in a
> > cold swamp to be transported to an edible part. That simply
> > does not happen.
> > john
> >
> > > Several people on the list have mentioned the use of
> > human waste for agricultural purposes. I'm interested in
> > what peoples experience has been with this and what kinds of
> > precautions people are taking to break the pathogen-human
> > cycles in order to avoid disease transmission. The World
> > health Organization has done a lot of work on this and their
> > guidelines are available online.
http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/wastewater/gsuww/en/index.html
> > >
> > > This appears to me to be one of the crucial linkages
> > that will have to be established in a steady state economy.
> > Nutrient recycling is a fundamental ecosystem
> > function/service which must be integrated in the closed
> > human-earth system. Of course pathogens have evolved to
> > exploit this system and we have to assure a reasonable level
> > of safety.
> > >
> > > Phil Bunch
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Livingontheland mailing list
> > >
Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org> > >
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Livingontheland mailing list
> >
Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org> >
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
>
Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 23:18:55 +0100
From: "John D'hondt" <
dhondt@eircom.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
<
livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Livingontheland Digest, Vol 256, Issue
4
Message-ID: <7E44467E6B434BB19C746F90F5897FDE@Targadc5fefe82d>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
We try to be as self sufficient as we can possibly be Michele. We have approx. 75 acres of land. Highest point over 800 feet elevation and lowest around 400. We have some 30 acres under permanent gras for grazing, a 3 acre lake around 30 acres under trees and shrub and maybe 2 acres under vegetable-plant cultivation. We grow at least 60 different crops in nearly permanent rotation. Meaning that many summer crops are nearly due for harvest and the autumn- winter crops have been sown in modules ready to go in the ground when space comes free.
What we harvest as animal food these days are a good wheelbarrow of comfrey leaves and stalks (pigs mostly), a good wheelbarrow load of nettles and thistles (goats mostly) and almost two wheelbarrow loads of mixed gras/herbs for other animals from horses to guinea pigs. Sheep and cattle are permanently out grazing but horses (they get laminitis on rich gras and clover if allowed to graze 24/7) and goats (who don't like wet) sleep inside and are out by day. Pigs are permanently in when it is wet for they can collapse the structure of the soil so much that land turns into a sorry state for years after.
john
Hi John!
Really have enjoyed your report. We live on the edge of a river wetlands. It is cool and beautiful, and we have a creek and related little tributaries going into it. What are you growing down there for animal food...and people food? For us, getting down there is tough as the sides of the ravine are quite steep, and the knees are not 16 years old, but I am curious!
Michele
In a message dated 7/22/2010 1:23:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
livingontheland-request@lists.ibiblio.org writes:
We harvest plants like comfrey and bullrush there and maybe 10 more species
for animal food. Again never seen a problem and how could it? Pathogens are
not taken up by plants in a cold swamp to be transported to an edible part.
That simply does not happen.
john
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 00:06:38 +0100
From: "John D'hondt" <
dhondt@eircom.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
<
livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Using Human Waste
Message-ID: <EA09AC39338C4366BB9AF10E2753E267@Targadc5fefe82d>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Unpleasant odors are caused by escaping nitrogen and sulfur compounds
mainly. They only come about if there is not enough carbon content in your
compost heap. In simpler words this means that the bulk of your compost pile
better consists of high carbon material such as wood chips ar saw dust,
straw or even paper and cardboard (sufficiently damp). Bacteria will use the
carbon for cell building and energy and they will snap up all nitrogen and
sulfur provided these are limited factors.
The moment it smells there is something wrong!
john
> Are there unpleasant odors associated with the early stages of composting?
> My wife is going to be renting rooms to tourists at the finca and we need
> to keep the aesthetics in line with that service :-) Also becoming old
> codgers we don't want to commit to a system that would require a lot of
> physical effort we cannot depend upon ourselves to provide at some point.
> This would include moving the resources far enough away from the house to
> avoid odors. Also is your composting thermophilic?
>
> With regard to the spread of pathogens this depends on the presence of the
> critter, the density and susceptibility of the population, and a means of
> transmission. These are fairly easy to manage on a small scale and in
> relative isolation but when communities become involved things change
> rapidly. It sounds to me like you are well aware of these issues.
>
> Phil
>
>
> ---- Dieter Brand <
diebrand@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I absolutely agree, pathogens are not a problem. I have used our
>> humanure for nearly 10 years and never had a problem. I let it compost
>> with dry leaves, saw dust, soil, grass, weeds or whatever is available.
>> After a few months it turns into crumbly soil that smells as good forest
>> soil (probably because of the leaves). I usually wait for two years
>> before I use it on root vegetables or things like salads that are eaten
>> raw just to be on the safe side. I would never use night soil from other
>> households or from the city because people consume all sorts of
>> pharmaceuticals and pour chemicals down the drain. I even separate the
>> toilet paper because of the bleaching agents.
>>
>> The human body and our surroundings contain billions of microbes, most
>> are beneficial, a few are potential pathogens when the conditions are
>> right, but our immune system even needs these potential pathogens to
>> build its defenses. There is only about half a dozen of dangerous
>> pathogens like tuberculoses that are always harmful, but most of these
>> have been eradicated in the West.
>>
>> Dieter Brand
>> Portugal
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed, 7/21/10, John D'hondt <
dhondt@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>> > From: John D'hondt <
dhondt@eircom.net>
>> > Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Using Human Waste
>> > To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
>> > <
livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> > Date: Wednesday, July 21, 2010, 10:15 PM
>> >
>> > In my experience I think that pathogens are not at all a
>> > problem. We have a septic tank overflowing into a small
>> > water purification area. I have seen all kinds of animals
>> > drink from that water at different places and not one sign
>> > of disease has been seen.
>> > Under good circumstances pathogens are eaten out of a
>> > living by an overwhelming mass of non pathogens. The only
>> > way you can select for pathogens is by using man made
>> > chemicals that often kill off the others. And onfortunately
>> > that is the paradigm we have been fed with our mother's
>> > milk. Don't try to kill bacteria for you will fail and don't
>> > be too clean so as to keep plenty of non pathogen species on
>> > standby.
>> >
>> > The water that comes out of the wetland shows no signs of
>> > nitrate or phosphate loss. It is clear and even in little
>> > pools no algae show up.
>> >
>> > We harvest plants like comfrey and bullrush there and maybe
>> > 10 more species for animal food. Again never seen a problem
>> > and how could it? Pathogens are not taken up by plants in a
>> > cold swamp to be transported to an edible part. That simply
>> > does not happen.
>> > john
>> >
>> > > Several people on the list have mentioned the use of
>> > human waste for agricultural purposes. I'm interested in
>> > what peoples experience has been with this and what kinds of
>> > precautions people are taking to break the pathogen-human
>> > cycles in order to avoid disease transmission. The World
>> > health Organization has done a lot of work on this and their
>> > guidelines are available online.
>> >
http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/wastewater/gsuww/en/index.html>> > >
>> > > This appears to me to be one of the crucial linkages
>> > that will have to be established in a steady state economy.
>> > Nutrient recycling is a fundamental ecosystem
>> > function/service which must be integrated in the closed
>> > human-earth system. Of course pathogens have evolved to
>> > exploit this system and we have to assure a reasonable level
>> > of safety.
>> > >
>> > > Phil Bunch
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Livingontheland mailing list
>> > >
Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>> > >
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Livingontheland mailing list
>> >
Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>> >
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Livingontheland mailing list
>>
Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>>
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland>
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
>
Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland>
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 20:53:15 -0500
From: Tommy Tolson <
healinghawk@earthlink.net>
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
<
livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Using Human Waste
Message-ID: <
4C4A478B.3090000@earthlink.net">
4C4A478B.3090000@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
In the case of pathogenic organisms that kill their host, the
behavior is predictable: multiply without regard for any limits to
growth, consume senselessly and excrete levels of waste that grievously
harm the host. When this is translated into human terms, it rings
with a disquieting familiarity, especially when we equate human success
with growth, consumption and material wealth.
-- from /The Humanure
Handbook/
On 7/23/10 8:46 AM,
shashi.pkumar@wipro.com wrote:
> The Humanure Handbook - Provides comprehensive details regarding
> handling of human waste.
>
> Online downloadable copy available at
http://weblife.org/humanure/>
> HTH
>
> Regards
> Shashi
>
>
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 21:16:15 -0600
From: "Tradingpost" <
tradingpost@lobo.net>
To:
livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.orgSubject: [Livingontheland] the Family Farmer
Message-ID: <
201007232116150828.0848AC26@mail.lobo.net">
201007232116150828.0848AC26@mail.lobo.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
[from]
How Willie Nelson?s Bedrock, the Family Farmer, Could Save the American Economy
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/07/23-6Published on Friday, July 23, 2010 by Civil Eats
Starting with a rally cry from Farm Aid's celebrity board, originally drafted in a letter to Congress in September of 2008 in a call to recognize the potential of family farmers to revive the collapsing U.S. economy, Rebuilding America's Economy paints a vision of what our nation could look like:
A $1 billion [a micro mini portion of the $700 billion bailout] investment in family farm agriculture would enrich us all, because we are all shareholders of the family farm. The return on investment in the family farm includes thriving local economies, nutritious food for better health, a safer and more secure food supply, a cleaner environment and more renewable energy. Investing in local, sustainable and organic food would shorten the distance between eaters and farmers, conserve energy, create economic opportunities, and new jobs through innovative processing and distribution systems, resulting in a better, greener, more efficient food and farm economy.
Willie Nelson, John Mellencamp, Neil Young, and Dave Matthews Farm Aid Board of Directors
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 05:43:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dieter Brand <
diebrand@yahoo.com>
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
<
livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Using Human Waste
Message-ID: <
585713.32941.qm@web63407.mail.re1.yahoo.com">
585713.32941.qm@web63407.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Phil,
We have a very primitive outdoor contraption. Except for a few nature freaks, most paying guests probably wouldn?t like using it, not least because it?s a squatting down toilet, which I think is healthier. But there is no odor and there are no flies because we cover with some material after each use. First we use a bit of saw dust or clay soil to cover the fresh feces and then we add dry leaves to aerate the pile and prevent it from getting too compact. Neighbors of ours have an indoor compost toilet and that works fine too. Some people use perforated ventilation pipes and electric ventilators to provide air, but I find it?s much better to keep the pile loose with enough leaves or other material from the beginning. We only have one composting chamber which I empty about once or twice a year. The toilet is on the slope of a hillside and I rake out the material from a discharge opening on the lower side down-hill. From there it goes to the
composting area in the garden, where I let it sit for another year or so, usually together with grass, weeds or other materials.
If you use a two-chamber system you can rake out the finished product from the chamber not in use and never come in contact with fresh feces, which I don?t mind at all. Our dog never needs a doctor; when she finishes her business, she just turns around to sniff at her feces and makes a detailed and instant analysis of its constituents much swifter and better than any lab. Unfortunately our noses aren?t as good as that.
The bottom of the composting chamber needs to have a slope with a drain (or discharge opening) at the lowest point to prevent fluids from accumulating and anaerobic conditions from occurring. If you do it with a building permission, you probably need a concrete floor. I just use a clay bottom.
I have never noticed high temperature in the composting chamber, but that depends on what materials you use at what ratio. In my compost heaps in the garden I used to measure temps of 60 deg. C or higher. But now I don?t do high temperature composting anymore because there is too much loss of nutrients. According to some US government regulations, compost heaps ought to be above 55 C for several days and above 60 C for at least a few hours so that all pathogens are killed. But that is purely theoretical and just applies to large public facilities. You don?t have to worry about that. If you leave your compost pile under aerobic conditions for a year or two there are no pathogens that will pose any problems.
Initially, I thought I would use our humanure for non-food plants only, but when I got the first batch ready, it felt much better than the cow manure we used to get from a neighboring cattle farmer.
We sometimes let ourselves become paranoid by reports of people getting terribly sick due to some pathogens, but deep down I always know there is no problem because I grew up on a small farm more than 50 years ago. There was an outdoor toilet which was basically just a hole in the ground. My grandfather would empty out that hole and pour the contents, which was a disgusting soup of pure feces with nothing else, on the dung heap on top of all the bedding from the cow shed and the pigsty. There was a terrible stench for a day or two, but after that it returned to normal. After the war, my grandfather was too poor to buy fertilizers and all fertility came from that dung heap. Except for salt, pepper and fish, the family produced everything it ate. I don?t remember that any member of our extended family ever needed a doctor in those days. That only came after the farm was abandoned and people moved to more sanitary conditions in the city.
My favorite spot as a small kid was a bench in the narrow space between the cow shed and the dung heap. When the afternoon sun burnt down on the heap, the air would vibrate in the heat and buzz with the sound of innumerable insects. I would breathe in the odorous air and be happy.
Dieter Brand
Portugal
> > Are there unpleasant odors associated with the early
> stages of composting? My wife is going to be renting rooms
> to tourists at the finca and we need to keep the aesthetics
> in line with that service :-) Also becoming old codgers we
> don't want to commit to a system that would require a lot of
> physical effort we cannot depend upon ourselves to provide
> at some point. This would include moving the resources far
> enough away from the house to avoid odors. Also is your
> composting thermophilic?
> >
> > With regard to the spread of pathogens this depends on
> the presence of the critter, the density and susceptibility
> of the population, and a means of transmission. These are
> fairly easy to manage on a small scale and in relative
> isolation but when communities become involved things change
> rapidly. It sounds to me like you are well aware of these
> issues.
> >
> > Phil
> >
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Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingonthelandEnd of Livingontheland Digest, Vol 256, Issue 6
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