Healthy soil and sustainable growing

["Dean" <andeanfx@midrivers.com>]

Whew, I agree with Paul that cattle are not sustainable food so there needs 
to be a better way of livingontheland and it is OWL.

Also, please remember: all licensing comes from government (permission to do 
that which would otherwise be illegal), all corporations are the governments 
children, all zoning comes from government, government by its very nature 
produces NOTHING as it is only restrictive in nature.  Public 'whatever' 
means government, personal means corporate (governments children) and 
private is non-existent due to government usurpation.

That said I doubt any reasonable man or woman (not person which is again 
government) would argue the point that government is the biggest detriment 
to livingontheland and OWL there is.

Dean, born and raised in Wyoming and now living in Montana and spent several 
years in Washington and Oregon.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "me" <ken@wildlanders.com>
To: <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Pauls ranching,destructive cowboying and the 
Seattle Times article


> The difference between your situation Paul and what we have here is that
> the ranchers here are permittees. You own the land and you managed and
> took care of it. But here it is different. These people abused their own
> lands until they became unproductive and full of noxious weeds. Since
> they now pay the USFS, BLM or DNR, as small as the fees are, they feel
> they have no responsibility for these public lands they graze. They many
> times are required to upkeep the fences but in most cases do not. So
> they graze the public lands then walk away from them.
>
> The other issue is the cattlemen tend to think they are the God's of
> this country and their ranches and their cows should be given precedence
> over everything and everyone else. I do agree that there is a sense of
> culture (as well as open space) that needs to be preserved here but at
> the same time, their arrogance and pride takes things way to far in that
> direction. This applies especially to the multigeneration ranches - not
> all of them but a few. They think that since they were the first in the
> country they can do whatever the hell they want to and that the public
> lands are more their lands than anyone else's - that they do not have to
> conform to the issues facing us as a result of lost resources. It is not
> all the ranchers but a few. Also, this is the mentality of the corporate
> folks too. Only their argument is "I have more money than you or more
> political clout than you" and so they think they can run rough shod over
> everyone else. Very arrogant and prideful people and poor examples for
> Americans. And I hope the public wins this one over these special
> corporate farming interests and the few unethical multigenerational
> ranchers.
>
> The truth is, we are only 80 miles from Seattle and the growth here is
> such that the ranchers should move out. All of this country is becoming
> urbanized quickly. And the big corporate ranchers do not belong in such
> areas. I lived in Wyoming for many years. It is easy to drive a hundred
> head tens miles down the road to new rangelands. But how do you drive
> 100 cows down the road ten miles in a city???
>
> They do not belong here anymore. Times have changed, but these people
> are unwilling to change with these times and prefer to live in the past
> causing hardship for everyone else. There is only half the land now but
> these folks are still growing more and more cows. It is utterly
> unsustainable and now damaging not only the remaining wild areas and
> wildlife but also the community and how they are precieved. There is
> nothing the general public can do about our growth and urbanization
> other than to reduce population growth. But that is unlikely to occur.
> And so people have to adapt in such a way that we all can live together.
>
> I can understand an elder lady trying to stay in her home when it has
> been condemned or annexed. Such people are not doing the environment any
> harm. But these psuedo corporate farmers and wanna be cowboys are
> destructive in all that they do. They are willing to destroy the ecology
> (our elk and last of our pristine desert wildflowers) just to make their
> profits. But a way of life that results in destruction is one that does
> not belong anymore. Like I said in the earlier post, it is rape and
> pillage mentality. Corporate mentality. And unfortunately a few of the
> old time ranchers (unethical) hold to that mentality as well. With that
> said, there might be a way to preserve some of this ranching, I would go
> for that, but the way these cowboys arrogantly and pridefully look at
> themselves as better than everyone else... that they not only think but
> demand precedence... well... they then become the problem to what they
> otherwise would call progress and an advancing civilization.
>
> -Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Glad to have your input as a range ecologist. I don't post all these 
> > things because I just happen to agree with everything,
> > but to provoke discussion on issues the public needs to see. As a teen in 
> > the '50s I worked with my father with herefords on
> > his place, made fence by hand in east TX summer heat (endless), and in '57 
> > we sodded fifty acres in coastal bermuda for...
> >
> > paul tradingpost@lobo.net
> >
> > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> >
> > On 7/30/2008 at 1:05 PM me wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Actually, I live in Ellensburg and am right in the middle of things
> > > here. The article in the Seattle Times was spot on.
> > >
> > > I am a range ecologist and now run a native plant seed company.
> > > As a range ecologist I am educzted to manage land (plants and the native
> > > ecology) for livestock production. Actually, I had a wildlife emphasis
> > > so I am actually a range and wildlife ecologist.
> > >
> > > Here are some of my comments in regards to the issue.
>
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