Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/

[Ed Wesolowski <edwes AT idisplay.com>]

At 12:22 PM 7/11/03 -0400, you wrote:

> Reported 03.07.11 07:15 from Shea Tisdale:
>
> .:> Oh... umm... on second thought, what kind of a world do we live in where
> .:> this is something to complain about?
> .:
> .:The kind where this is generally considered unethical at best...
>
> There is some small difference between a line or twelve in an album and
> entire songs.  Individually lines might be considered "references"... and
> before you say it, the author doesn't actually have to tell you about his
> references.

Defend Bob Dylan on charges of copping lyrics; I don't think so! On the 
other hand it's never bothered me. Not even a little.  I can't remember (I 
think I knew it once, but not now...) the tune that "The Times They are A 
Changin" was based on, note for note. Now that's the tune, not the lyrics, 
but the process is similar, it's the "folk process," like 
whisper-down-the-lane. It used to tear me up that when I saw, years ago, 
Son House or Fred McDowell, or other blues players, and I'd recognize a 
tune but then the lyrics seemed to come from another song. I finally 
realized that probably the only time the lyrics were ever the same, was the 
one time the song was recorded. Whatever was caught on the recording was 
established. In real time, on the other hand, the lyrics were likely never 
the same. I'm sure the ethnomusicologists out there know this.

> You're wrong:  this isn't unethical.  Impolite, perhaps.  But our
> creative arts thrive on being able to steal -- and liberally -- from
> those who created before us.

An  anecdote: There was a tune Dave Ray of Koerner, Ray and Glover did, 
"Fannin St." ...probably from a  1948 Leadbelly recording. Leadbelly 
recorded it twice in the sessions, the same tune, but it had different 
names, ("Fannin St," called "Cry for Me," tho, when he sang it in 
California). Does this mean Leadbelly stole it from himself, even before 
Dave Ray stole the tune from Leadbelly?-)

Defend Bob Dylan on charges of stealing lyrics? Hey I'm not even sure who 
wrote the "Nashville Skyline" album. But It's never bothered me. He did 
write "All Along the Watchtower," didn't he? (What a powerful version Jimi 
Hendrix made of it! Still knocks my socks off....)

An odd thing happens to songs when they're recorded. Lord knows Willie 
McTell probably only sang "Statesboro Blues" one way, once, that is, on the 
day it was recorded. I'd be surprised if every other time he played it the 
lyrics were the same. Certainly the other players who "covered" it would 
have changed it around, on purpose or accidently.

I think the reason that the idea of open source software appeals to me is 
in here. American may have given the world  capitalism, an economic system 
built on individual effort & enterprise, but fallible memory and 
whisper-down the lane rule. Information doesn't just want to be free, it 
takes too much energy for it to not be, over the long term, that is.
Ed W.


At 12:22 PM 7/11/03 -0400, you wrote:

> Reported 03.07.11 07:15 from Shea Tisdale:
>
> .:> Oh... umm... on second thought, what kind of a world do we live in where
> .:> this is something to complain about?
> .:
> .:The kind where this is generally considered unethical at best...
>
> There is some small difference between a line or twelve in an album and
> entire songs.  Individually lines might be considered "references"... and
> before you say it, the author doesn't actually have to tell you about his
> references.
>
> You're wrong:  this isn't unethical.  Impolite, perhaps.  But our
> creative arts thrive on being able to steal -- and liberally -- from
> those who created before us.
>
> Note this blatant act of theft (me)...
> http://ibiblio.org/quack/HurricaneVolcano.html
>
> ...and the original source (Paul Jones)...
> http://ibiblio.org/pjones/poetry/w-and-c.html
>
>
> .:This is also from the same person, Bob Dylan, who sued Apple computer in
> .:Sept. 1994 for using the name Dylan as a code name for their DYnamic
> .:LANguage.
>
> Heh.  Did he win?  He shouldn't have.
>
>
> .:It seems Dylan is fairly well known for stealing music now that I look at
> .:the web.  Several smaller song writers have accused him of similar acts. And
> .:at least two major artists have also noted remarkable similarities to their
> .:music in Dylan's.  "Knocking on Heaven's Door" is almost an exact clone of
> .:Neil Young's "Helpless" and "Shelter from the Storm" is an exact melodic
> .:copy of Foggerty's "Down Around the Corner".
>
> And before the music of the folk was written down and copywritten, many
> many many songs sounded identical -- they were the same tune, using
> different lyrics, or similar lyrics, because that's how the music
> propogated.  Ever notice how 90% of folk music is the same I/IV/V chord
> progression?
>
> Granted, Bob is being impolite by not acknowledging his sources.  But
> impolite and unethical are very different.
>
> Heh... perhaps this very argument is what the whole
> RIAA-vs-the-general-public thing is all about.  Sounds like culture clash
> to me.
>
> --Sil
>
> --
> "If you put your supper dish to your ears you can hear the sounds
>  of a restaurant."  --Snoopy    (Charles Schultz 02-12-2000 RIP)
>     *&* Sil_Greene AT unc.edu   *&*   ICQ Silauren #36430811 *&*
>
>
> .:
> .:
> .:----- Original Message -----
> .:From: "Sil Greene" <Sil_greene AT unc.edu>
> .:To: "Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/";
> .:<internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> .:Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 12:25 AM
> .:Subject: Re: [internetworkers] Say it isn't so, Bob!
> .:
> .:
> .:>
> .:> Shocking, shocking!  What kind of world do we live in when poets,
> .:> musicians, songwriters, painters, craftsmen of all kinds rob and plunder
> .:> and pillage the best thoughts of their creative brethren?
> .:>
> .:>
> .:> --Sil
> .:>
> .:> Reported 03.07.10 23:52 from Shea Tisdale:
> .:>
> .:> .:Bob Dylan is being accused of lifting lines from at least two books for
> .:use
> .:> .:in songs or album titles.
> .:> .:
> .:>
> .:.:http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/eo/20030710/en_music_eo/121
> .:29
> .:>
> .:> --
> .:> "If you put your supper dish to your ears you can hear the sounds
> .:>  of a restaurant."  --Snoopy    (Charles Schultz 02-12-2000 RIP)
> .:>     *&* Sil_Greene AT unc.edu   *&*   ICQ Silauren #36430811 *&*
> .:>
> .:> ---
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