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[bob ford <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>]

No Susan, I wasn't  really comparing the two systems as much as making a 
point that centralization creates big problems, and that the Canadian system 
was far from perfect.  I did not even bring up the issue, I was replying to a 
post about Socialism.  I feel very strongly that centralization, in anything, 
leads to oppression, of one sort or another.  
 
Right now, the insurance companies are the oppressors, in health care.  At 
least, you can fight them and win, I have.  Replace them with lifetime-job 
federal government bureaucrats, and I don't see things improving.  Actually, 
it will probably be the same exact people, but now they will be untouchable 
federal employees.
 
Phoenix, along, with Florida, is a primary destination of Canadian 
"snowbirds".  Over the years, I've known and talked to more than a few.  But, 
I certainly have not talked to as many Canadians as you, and I have 
absolutely no personal experience.   about    A lot of the money goes to pay 
for things other than putting money into the pockets of health care workers, 
as you would know 
 
 I wish  we could find a way to change the system.  personally, I believe we 
should start with the following steps.: Make private health insurance 
portable, offer private insurance to people with pre-existing conditions- at 
higher rates, cut back on the redundant paperwork , and do something about 
the legal vultures.
 
 Now that might not solve everything, but it would be a start.  And, you 
wouldn't have former IRS employees, at a certain GS level, becoming your new 
health care administrators.  Those are efficiencies with which I prefer to 
abstain .....bobford



----- Original Message ----
From: SJC <indexer AT localnet.com>
To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 11:29:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Homestead] medical safety in this country

Bob, I understood your original point to be that the Canadian medical 
system is inferior to ours.  My  point was, or was intended to be, that 
our system is so far out of kilter that their system is at least no 
worse, no matter the system of delivery.  

I know many Canadians and visit in Canada with regularity (I'm only a 
couple of hours from NB).  I really don't know Canadians that are 
unhappy with their system, and Ontario seems to have the bulk of the 
ones I've heard about who are unhappy, for whatever reason/s.  I used to 
work on the coast here where there are hundreds of Canadian vacationers 
returning every year and sometimes I'd tease them "Why don't you just 
move down here; you're here all the time anyhow" and the answer was 
invariably some version of "Oh, but I'd lose my medical card". 

I lived and worked in Canada for some time.  The system, at least in 
those times and places, worked much better and much more efficiently 
than ours.  I was appalled when we returned to the states.  If you look 
at rankings of medical care/medical care delivery the world over, our 
record is well below many so-called socialized systems, regardless of 
the idiosyncrasies in either system.  Much to the dismay of many (not 
that I'd like them to rank lower just so we could rank higher), even 
some 'third world' countries now rank much higher than we do, even in 
areas such as neonatal care, live births, and many other complex 
situations.  We have a dismal mess on our hands.  Hundreds of thousands 
of folks in this country don't ever get a diagnosis until they show up 
dying in the ER, because they could not afford to see a doctor in the 
first place, so they don't even have the option of considering the time 
slot in which they'll be treated....at least the woman with the brain 
tumor had the diagnosis/option.  She had to pay for it.  Well, so would 
I have had to.  My insurance wouldn't have covered it.  I understand 
she's upset, but it's not like there would be a drastically different 
outcome under our system.

By world standards, systems where the motivating factor is a unit of 
monetary exchange stink.  That's the case whether one is looking at pure 
intent/moneygrubbing  (my personal example of  unnecessary visits, 
testing, x-rays, etc) or competence (iatrogenic statistics).  By either 
measure, we're losers. We should be looking at every other system 
possible to see how we can better ours, even if we have to turn the 
money part on its head.  Or maybe because of the money part alone.  Wall 
Street doesn't have all the greedy uncaring moneygrubbers.  You wouldn't 
be un-insurable in the Canadian system, you know......that just occurred 
to me. :-)

I left medicine many years ago over the ethics and am sorry to say I've 
seen nothing but a downhill slide since.  I have much admiration for 
many who've stayed at it; they are better persons than I.  I just plain 
couldn't stomach it, and it made a lousy example for my kids as they got 
old enough to understand.

I still find the science of medicine fascinating, though.

Susan Jane, still in Maine



bob ford wrote:
> Susan, there are plenty of mistakes made by docs and staff that cause 
> injury and death, I agree.    As I said in the other post, I took my 
> one-time PCP to BOMEX.  He was treating himself for depression, and didn't 
> prescribe his own pysch meds properly which caused him to make a mistake 
> with my meds that caused me harm.  I did not sue him, but I did hold him 
> accountable.
>  
> I am un-insurable;  if I were to give up my insurance.  I could not be 
> covered with any premium.  Heart disease and cancer (especially colon 
> cancer) run heavily in both sides of my family and I have suffered the 
> genetic disposition to both, already.  I also caused myself additional harm 
> by smoking tobacco for years --that's completely on me.  I was raised to be 
> smarter , but I failed at that, and will pay a heavy price, I fear.  
>  
> I don't think I like the health care system , even ,as much, as the next 
> person, and so far, I still have insurance.  I just wish for reasonable 
> catastrophic health insurance, the ability to pick my own docs and 
> hospital, and I'm willing to fork over the $$$ for the preventive stuff.  
> I'm neither rich nor poor.  The rich don't care what it cost, and neither 
> do the poor.  In Arizona, a patient on Medicaid can see most of my docs.  I 
> don't begrudge them;  Without insurance, I could be wiped out with a couple 
> of major surgeries and follow up care.  I just am looking for a way to make 
> the system work without the oppressiveness of the insurance companies or 
> the government .......bobford
>  

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