Corpus-Paul

[iscott2 AT uwo.ca]

Loren,

Sorry about the delayed response. I'm not convinced, though, by your examples
here:

> Seneca says that Socrates remained
> in prison unt death "in order to free mankind from the
> fear of death" (Epistulae Morales 24:4). And Epictetus
> says, "Now that Socrates is dead the memory of him is
> perhaps more useful than what he did or said while he
> still lived" (Epictetus 4:1:168-169). People thus
> follow the example of Socrates in dying the Noble
> Death. So too with Paul: Christ died in order to set
> humanity free from sin and death. Christians follow
> his example and die as he did in baptism; they are
> crucified with Christ (Rom 6,8).

The key difference, though, has to do with *how* the death of one person
influences the lives of others. For Seneca and Epictetus the death of Socrates
serves as an inspiring example which others repeat. His death has no effect
other than to establish a new way of thinking about life and one's own death, 
a
way of thinking which will (they hope) inspire new actions on the part of
others. Yet the pauline passages which I pointed to before should make clear
that for Paul Jesus' death is not simply a good example. Nor does it simply
communicate a new way of thinking. It is, of course, both of those things. But
the most vital significance of that death, for Paul, is that it actually moves
believers into a new position vis a vis the coming eschatological wrath. It 
does
this not simply because it inspires believers to live differently. Rather,
believers are connected with Christ in such a way that his suffering of wrath
(Paul can also call it a curse) *counts as if they had already suffered that
wrath*. Hence they do not need to fear it in the future. Its threat to them 
was
exhausted when they died with Christ.

Hence Christ's death is "vicarious" for Paul in a very different sense from 
the
death of Socrates. Christ's death has the same causal outcome for the 
believers
as if they had died themselves. The whole point is that they do not need to
suffer wrath now because Christ did. Socrates' death, however, has no causal
effect on his followers unless they actually repeat his actions and die
themselves.

As for obedience in a military context, here I simply don't see this emphasis 
in
Paul. Yes, Paul emphasizes that Jesus was obedient in his death, but this idea
of obedience stems from the Jewish traditional idea of faithful obedience to
God, not from an image of Christ as a soldier. The military imagery which 
there
is in Paul's letters concerns the believers as soldiers, not Christ as a
warrior.

Finally, as you say, sacrificial ideas are much more prominent in Paul than in
discussions of hellenistic martyrs.

So, I still would suggest that if the hellenistic model of a Noble death has 
had
an effect on Paul it has not shaped his basic understanding of Christ's death
and its significance. It has, at most, provided him on occasion with a way to
valorize Christ so that the audience is more predisposed to view him
sympathetically. If this is what you mean when you say that the "Noble Death
was in the back of Paul's mind as he worked through his own ideas on the
vicarious nature of Christ's death in a Jewish eschatological scenario," then 
I
would agree. My impression is, however, that Seeley's book intends to set up
the Noble Death as a central paradigm for understanding Paul's conception of
Jesus' death. Based on the kind of parallels you cite (and these are the same
kind of ideas with which I am familiar elsewhere in hellenistic lit.), I don't
think the hellenistic Noble Death concept can serve this function. It simply
does not explain Paul's core ideas about the cross.

I will, however, pick up Seeley's book and take a look at it. Thanks for the
chance to sample his ideas.

Ian.

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Ian W. Scott
Lecturer in Religious Studies
King's University College (at the University of Western Ontario)
email: iscott2 AT uwo.ca
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Please visit my web-site at http://www.ian-w-scott.com
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