Corpus-Paul

["James Ernest" <jdemail AT charter.net>]

Albert, 

Seeing no takers for your question, and needing a spot of exercise, I'll
take a crack at it.

The Greek text: 

oi)=da kai\ pe/peismai e)n kuri/w| )Ihsou= o(/ti ou)de\n koino\n di'
e(autou=: ei) mh\ tw=| logizome/nw| ti koino\n ei)=nai, e)kei/nw|
koino/n.

If I understand correctly, you propose to read au)tou instead of
e(autou= and translate something like "I know and am persuaded in the
Lord Jesus that nothing is common for him except perhaps considering
another person to be somewhat common." (I can't make any sense out of
your actual wordings.)

Several considerations:

(1) di' au)tou= can't mean "for him". And anyway, I'd guess that the
variant autou is not au)tou= but au(tou=, merely an alternative spelling
of the reflexive pronoun, because "nothing is common through him"
doesn't make sense here. (You could check an edition of the majority
text to see which breathing they use.)

(2) Granted, ti can sometimes mean "somewhat," but not here because the
verb of thinking (the participle logizome/nw|) is clearly functioning
with ei)=nai in indirect discourse: considering x to be y, where x is
object and y is predicate accusative or predicate adj. The only natural
way to take this is x = ti and y = koino/n "for the one considering
something to be common". If it were "for the one considering someone to
be common" we'd see tina rather than ti.

(3) Your proposed translation doesn't account for the dative tw=|
logizome/nw|. (Your proposed translation puts "for him" in place of "for
the one considering...."). If the writer had wished to say "Nothing is
common except considering someone common," instead of a dative
participle we would have, perhaps, an infinitive: ei) mh\ to\
logi/zesthai tina koino\n ei)=nai, or ei) mh\ to\ logi/zesthai adelpho\n
koino\n [ei)=nai]. "Nothing is common except perhaps that one
considering another to be common is himself common" might come out
something like: ou)de\n koino\n e)stin, ei) mh\ o( logizo/menos
a)delpho\n koino\n ei)=nai, e)kei=nos koino/s.

(4) The antecedent of e)kei/nw| ("that one," i.e., the more distant of
two available antecedents, "the former") clearly is tw=| logizome/nw|.

(5) In the final clause, e)kei/nw| koino/n, e)stin is understood, as is
the subject "it," i.e., the same "something" referred to by ti: "for the
one considering something to be common, for him (it) (is) common." This
is a smooth, natural reading.

Add in the context in Rom 14, and clearly the usual translation is
correct while the alternative you ask about is unambiguously impossible.

For questions of this sort, you would get quicker answers (and probably
better than mine) by posting to the B-GREEK list rather than
corpus-paul. See http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek. The purpose of the
b-greek list is to bring together beginning and more advanced learners
of biblical Greek with some veteran Greek teachers who promptly,
competently, and usually kindly answer all kinds of questions like this
one because they want to help people learn. I'd go there myself with a
Greek grammar question. I'm a mere lurker on corpus-paul and can't speak
for the list, but I don't think it's meant for beginning Greek kinds of
questions.

Don't know what you were getting at here, but I suspect your instincts
were right, though this Rom text doesn't help you. For a text about
considering people to be common or unclean, maybe try Peter's vision of
the net?

Peace

James


--------------------------------
James D. Ernest, Ph.D., Editor
Baker Academic
+1 616 891 5625 (office)
jernest AT bakerbooks.com
--------------------------------





-----Original Message-----
From: corpus-paul-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:corpus-paul-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
AF3506 AT aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 9:32 PM
To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Romans 14:14


In a message dated 10/3/2003 2:05:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tmcos AT canada.com writes: 



Sheila, I think the context of this passage is dealing 
with dietary issues and not people per se, hence the 
emphasis on "eating" (Rom.14:15-17) Best regards, 
Tony Costa, M.A. 


On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:47:59 -0400, "Sheila E. McGinn, 
Ph.D." wrote: 

> 
> The following is a query from an interested party who 
> has not yet been able 
> to subscribe to the list. RSVP and I will convey your 
> remarks to him. 
> Thanks. Sheila McGinn 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: AF5693 AT aol.com [mailto:AF5693 AT aol.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 2:45 PM 
> To: smcginn AT jcu.edu 
> Subject: Re: Translation 
> 
> Dear Professor McGinn: 
> 
> I would very much appreciate if you could answer a 
> question on Romans 14:14. 
> 
> The Greek of this is: <<oida kai pepeismai en kuriôi 
> Iêsou hoti ouden koinon 
> 
> di' heautou: ei mê tôi logizomenôi ti koinon einai, 
> ekeinôi koinon. >>. Many 
> 
> Greek manuscripts, including the Majority text has 
> "autou" rathar than 
> "heautou" 
> after the word "di". 
> Could this verse possibly be translated as saying that 
> to consider others 
> common is common? Something like: 
> I have perceived, and have been persuaded in the Lord 
> Jesus, that nothing is 
> 
> common for him, if not him being regarded to be 
> somewhat (or to some degree) 
> 
> common, for that (one) is common. 
> or maybe; 
> I have perceived, and have been persuaded in the Lord 
> Jesus, that nothing is 
> 
> common for him, if not the reasoning to be somewhat 
> common, for that (one) 
> is 
> common. 
> or maybe; 
> I have perceived, and have been persuaded in the Lord 
> Jesus, that nothing is 
> 
> common for him, if not him regarding to be someway 
> common for that (one) is 
> common. 
> 



It's true the main topic of this chapter is food, but I don't think that
negates the possibility that Rom. 14:14 could be referring to not
treating others as common. Actually, I wasn't looking for an
interpretation of verse 14 per se (though I don't mind interpretations
being offered). My question is a whether the Greek grammar rules out my
interpretation. My knowledge of Greek is poor, so I'm hoping someone who
knows Greek better than I do can answer my question. 

Albert