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  • From: "moon-ryul jung" <moon AT sogang.ac.kr>
  • To: corpus-paul AT franklin.oit.unc.edu
  • Subject: Re: All under sin (Rom 3:19)
  • Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 20:58:35 -0400


George,
thanks for the clarification of your position. It is clearer.
Your logic seems to be:

If the Jews, as the representative of the whole humanity,
are indicted by the Law, the Gentiles are also indicted even if they are
not under the law directly.

I would agree to this logic in and of itself. In the well-known Jewish
indictment of the Gentiles described in Rom 1:18-32, especially
of idolatry, it seems certain that the Jews indicted the Gentiles
from their perspective, ie. based on their Law, which prohibited
idolatry and other things.
Also, this logic can be supported by the fact that
the requirement of the law should be fulfilled by Gentile believers:
Even if the Gentiles were not under the law as a system of government,
they were under the spirit of the law, so to speak.

But in the CONTEXT of Rom 3:1-31, Paul talks about the status of the Jews
before God, and everything Paul said has to do with the Jews [
That dialogue means a lot to the Gentiles, though. In fact, Paul
constructed that dialogue to to each them.]

In this context, 3:19-20 can be interpreted as follows:

Whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law,
so that every mouth (ie. even the mouth of the the Jews, not just
that of the Gentiles) is stopped, and the whole world
(ie. even the Jews, not just the Gentiles) is held accountable to God.
[The Jews are not better off], because the "works of the law", which
they perform as the identity marker of being the covenant people, does
not help. No flesh will be justified in his sight from the works of the
law. The role of the law is that through the law comes the knowledge of
sin.

In the same manner, Rom 3:9-10 can be interpreted as follows:

All men, both Jews and Gentiles, are under sin.
[We already said that the Gentiles are under sin.]
The Jews are also under sin, as it is written (and spoken to them),
" None is righteous,...."

When Paul says "I have charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks,
are under sin", his focus is on the fact that the Jews
are also under sin. In the context of Rom 3:9 - 31, Paul
is not concerned with showing that even the Gentiles are
accountable to God. "EVERY mouth" and "ALL the world" in
Rom 3:19 are uttered having in mind the Jews.

But George, however, please do not get my "assertions"
as if I say them with some kind of assurance. I simply
put forward a hypothesis, which occurred to me since
I began reading Romans from the "New Perspective on Paul".

Cheers!

Moon
Moon R. Jung
Sogang Univ,
Seoul, Korea


However,
There were some interesting discussions on the meaning of 3:19. Here are
> quotations of Billy and George:
>
> Billy said:
> -----------------------
> I take Rom. 3:19 to be saying the law consigns Israel under sin-
> whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law
> just like the rest of mankind.
>
> I don't see anything here (in 3:19) about how the indictment of the
> world came to be. I think that was taken care of in 1:18ff.
>
> I take 3:19 as an answer to the question posed in 3:1
>
> 3:1 Therefore what advantage does the Jew have, or what is the value of
> circumcision?=20
>
> The point, I think, is that to those who think the Jews have privilege
> you are wrong; they are indicted as well. In my understanding, the
> nations are indicted under Adam, not under Moses. The Mosaic covenant
> was not given to the nations, and the nations did not agree to it.=20
> ------------------------
>
> George said:
> ----------------------
> I don't think we can see Rom 3:19 as drawing a parallel between the
> sinfulness of Israel
> and the sinfulness of the world, given the syntactical implications of the
> verse.
>
> Notice the use of the subjunctive verb "become" (GENHTAI) which connects
> it to the purpose
> clause "so that" [hINA]. And note the subject of this subjunctive verb:
> "the whole world".
>
> Paul sees the indictment of Israel as indicting the entire world.
> ---------------------
>
> I think that the insight of both Billy and George is right.
> I wonder how the law spoken to those under the law can indict the whole
> world. But we do not have to take the hINA clause as a purpose
> clause, we can take it simply as a result clause.
> Because the Gentiles are already indicted, the Scripture's indictment of
> the Jewish people allows us to conclude that ALL, BOTH Gentiles AND Jews,
> are indicted. This argument is for Billy.
>
> In 3:9 "we have charged all, both Jews and Greek, to be under sin, as it
> is written "None is righteous...." may be naturally taken to mean that
> the scripture/the law indicts both Jews and Gentiles directly.
> This is for George.
>
> But if we interpret 3:9 so that we have charged all, Jews AS WELL AS
> Greek,
> to be under sin, as it is written, "None is righteous....",
> the focus of 3:9 is the Jews. X as well as Y can be taken to have focus
> more
> on X than Y. In that case, Paul cites the scripture to indict the Jews,
> to show that the Jews AS WELL AS the Gentiles are under sin.
>
> In conclusion, I think Billy's position is less forced.
>
> Moon
> Moon R. Jung
> Associate Professor
> Sogang Univ, Seoul, Korea




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