Cc-uk mailing list

[Damian.Rafferty AT Culture.gsi.gov.uk]

Whoops, I spoke too soon and have now read all the other responses. Very
interesting and very useful. Many thanks. IMO an option to ask someone to
desist from using your material under a moral rights scenario like this
would be very useful and would remove at a stroke one of the big reasons
*not* to use CC (as opposed to the right to sue them before asking them to
desist, which I can see, would make a mockery of the nc license). Perhaps it
will come in as many continental European legal systems seem to have this
right hard wired?

In the meantime, I will suggest the creative use of the linkback as outlined
by Rob:)

Thanks again, Damian

-----Original Message-----
From: cc-uk-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:cc-uk-request AT lists.ibiblio.org]
Sent: 26 January 2005 12:04
To: cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Cc-uk Digest, Vol 12, Issue 14


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Today's Topics:

   1. What happens if...? (Damian.Rafferty AT Culture.gsi.gov.uk)
   2. Re: What happens if...? (Andres Guadamuz)
   3. Re: What happens if...? (Stuart Yeates)
   4. Re: What happens if...? (Rob Myers)
   5. RE: What happens if...? (Damian.Rafferty AT Culture.gsi.gov.uk)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:56:33 -0000
From: Damian.Rafferty AT Culture.gsi.gov.uk
Subject: [Cc-uk] What happens if...?
To: cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
        
<E26A2D6799DA7D49A6C669C6CD91B0AEDC13F4 AT dcms-tcrx.dept.culture.gov.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="ISO-8859-1"

I have just had a query about a particular instance relating to one of our
projects. Say  someone puts up a picture of their parents coming down from
the steps of the SS Windrush and assigns a non-commercial license to it.
Then the BNP take this image and uses it on their website to illustrate
their objection to immigration. What can the original owner of the copyright
do, if anything, to remove the image from the BNP website?

Damian

-----Original Message-----
From: cc-uk-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:cc-uk-request AT lists.ibiblio.org]
Sent: 24 January 2005 17:01
To: cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Cc-uk Digest, Vol 12, Issue 12


Send Cc-uk mailing list submissions to
        cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: examples of use of CC in commercial sector
      (Desiree Miloshevic)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:37:10 +0000
From: Desiree Miloshevic <dmiloshevic AT afilias.info>
Subject: Re: [Cc-uk] examples of use of CC in commercial sector
To: cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <41F4FA06.30207 AT afilias.info>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hi -

Just a note to say that the other week I spoke to a board member of a 
big design company in London re cc. They have a lot of students 
(freelancers) who come in to do paid work, but the students keep 
mentioning how they'd like to retain their IP rights, creating extra 
legal work for the company, etc.

The company is willing to suggest the use of cc-UK license for the 
students and thus promote cc.

We should encourage this particular use of cc in other creative 
industries among the contacts that we have and/or build some awareness 
campaign for students at universities?

Thoughts?

Did anyone hear about simliar activities or examples in any other 
commercial or creative sector, that I can use?

thanks,

Desiree Miloshevic
--
www.afilias.info/contact/
www.isoc.org
www.cpsr.net



------------------------------

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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:18:49 -0000
From: "Andres Guadamuz" <a.guadamuz AT ed.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Cc-uk] What happens if...?
To: <cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000801c50398$cf850200$a367d781 AT law.ed.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

IMO, nothing could be done because there are strong philosophical and
ethical principles embedded in open source and Creative Commons licences
that enshrine freedom of expression and forbid any discrimination of fields
of endeavour in the licence. For example, the CC baseline rights state that
"other people's fair use, first sale, and free expression rights are not
affected by the license". This certainly would include the BNP, even if the
owner objects to the way in which their work is being used (or abused).

This is where moral rights would be useful, as in my opinion this could
constitute "prejudice or damage to honour or reputation" in the sense of the
integrity right. However, I don't really want to re-open the moral rights
can of worms, enough has been said about that in this list.

-------------------------
Andres Guadamuz
AHRB Research Centre for Studies in
Intellectual Property and Technology Law
Old College, South Bridge
Edinburgh EH8 9YL

Tel: 44 (0)131 6509699
Fax: 44 (0)131 6506317
a.guadamuz AT ed.ac.uk
http://technollama.blogspot.com/


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Damian.Rafferty AT Culture.gsi.gov.uk>
To: <cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: [Cc-uk] What happens if...?


> I have just had a query about a particular instance relating to one of our
> projects. Say  someone puts up a picture of their parents coming down from
> the steps of the SS Windrush and assigns a non-commercial license to it.
> Then the BNP take this image and uses it on their website to illustrate
> their objection to immigration. What can the original owner of the
copyright
> do, if anything, to remove the image from the BNP website?
>
> Damian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cc-uk-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:cc-uk-request AT lists.ibiblio.org]
> Sent: 24 January 2005 17:01
> To: cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Cc-uk Digest, Vol 12, Issue 12
>
>
> Send Cc-uk mailing list submissions to
> cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-uk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> cc-uk-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> cc-uk-owner AT lists.ibiblio.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Cc-uk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: examples of use of CC in commercial sector
>       (Desiree Miloshevic)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:37:10 +0000
> From: Desiree Miloshevic <dmiloshevic AT afilias.info>
> Subject: Re: [Cc-uk] examples of use of CC in commercial sector
> To: cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <41F4FA06.30207 AT afilias.info>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hi -
>
> Just a note to say that the other week I spoke to a board member of a
> big design company in London re cc. They have a lot of students
> (freelancers) who come in to do paid work, but the students keep
> mentioning how they'd like to retain their IP rights, creating extra
> legal work for the company, etc.
>
> The company is willing to suggest the use of cc-UK license for the
> students and thus promote cc.
>
> We should encourage this particular use of cc in other creative
> industries among the contacts that we have and/or build some awareness
> campaign for students at universities?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Did anyone hear about simliar activities or examples in any other
> commercial or creative sector, that I can use?
>
> thanks,
>
> Desiree Miloshevic
> --
> www.afilias.info/contact/
> www.isoc.org
> www.cpsr.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cc-uk mailing list
> Cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-uk
>
>
> End of Cc-uk Digest, Vol 12, Issue 12
> *************************************
>
> PLEASE NOTE: THE ABOVE MESSAGE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE INTERNET.
>
> On entering the GSi, this email was scanned for viruses by the Government
> Secure Intranet (GSi) virus scanning service supplied exclusively by
Energis
> in partnership with MessageLabs.
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> Please see http://www.gsi.gov.uk/main/notices/information/gsi-003-2002.pdf
> for further details.
>
> In case of problems, please call your organisational IT helpdesk
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:36:34 +0000
From: Stuart Yeates <stuart.yeates AT computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Cc-uk] What happens if...?
To: Damian.Rafferty AT Culture.gsi.gov.uk
Cc: cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <41F780C2.1070905 AT computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880048_en_5.htm

Paragraph 80:

"80: (1) The author of a copyright literary, dramatic, musical or 
artistic work, and the director of a copyright film, has the right in 
the circumstances mentioned in this section not to have his work 
subjected to derogatory treatment.

     (2) For the purposes of this section-

        (a) "treatment" of a work means any addition to, deletion from 
or alteration to or adaptation of the work, other than-
              (i) a translation of a literary or dramatic work, or
              (ii) an arrangement or transcription of a musical work 
involving no more than a change of key or register; and

        (b) the treatment of a work is derogatory if it amounts to 
distortion or mutilation of the work or is otherwise prejudicial to the 
honour or reputation of the author or director;"

I believe that there are also the rights of subjects of such photos in 
these circumstances.

cheers
stuart

Damian.Rafferty AT Culture.gsi.gov.uk wrote:
> I have just had a query about a particular instance relating to one of our
> projects. Say  someone puts up a picture of their parents coming down from
> the steps of the SS Windrush and assigns a non-commercial license to it.
> Then the BNP take this image and uses it on their website to illustrate
> their objection to immigration. What can the original owner of the
copyright
> do, if anything, to remove the image from the BNP website?
> 
> Damian
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cc-uk-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:cc-uk-request AT lists.ibiblio.org]
> Sent: 24 January 2005 17:01
> To: cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Cc-uk Digest, Vol 12, Issue 12
> 
> 
> Send Cc-uk mailing list submissions to
>       cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>       http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-uk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>       cc-uk-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>       cc-uk-owner AT lists.ibiblio.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Cc-uk digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: examples of use of CC in commercial sector
>       (Desiree Miloshevic)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:37:10 +0000
> From: Desiree Miloshevic <dmiloshevic AT afilias.info>
> Subject: Re: [Cc-uk] examples of use of CC in commercial sector
> To: cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <41F4FA06.30207 AT afilias.info>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Hi -
> 
> Just a note to say that the other week I spoke to a board member of a 
> big design company in London re cc. They have a lot of students 
> (freelancers) who come in to do paid work, but the students keep 
> mentioning how they'd like to retain their IP rights, creating extra 
> legal work for the company, etc.
> 
> The company is willing to suggest the use of cc-UK license for the 
> students and thus promote cc.
> 
> We should encourage this particular use of cc in other creative 
> industries among the contacts that we have and/or build some awareness 
> campaign for students at universities?
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Did anyone hear about simliar activities or examples in any other 
> commercial or creative sector, that I can use?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Desiree Miloshevic
> --
> www.afilias.info/contact/
> www.isoc.org
> www.cpsr.net
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cc-uk mailing list
> Cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-uk
> 
> 
> End of Cc-uk Digest, Vol 12, Issue 12
> *************************************
> 
> PLEASE NOTE: THE ABOVE MESSAGE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE INTERNET.
>  
> On entering the GSi, this email was scanned for viruses by the Government
> Secure Intranet (GSi) virus scanning service supplied exclusively by
Energis
> in partnership with MessageLabs.
>  
> Please see http://www.gsi.gov.uk/main/notices/information/gsi-003-2002.pdf
> for further details.
> 
> In case of problems, please call your organisational IT helpdesk
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
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> Cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-uk
> 
> 


-- 
Stuart Yeates            stuart.yeates AT computing-services.oxford.ac.uk
OSS Watch                                  http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk/
Humbul Humanities Hub                         http://www.humbul.ac.uk/


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:45:38 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robmyers AT mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Cc-uk] What happens if...?
To: cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <1024473.1106739938964.JavaMail.robmyers AT mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Wednesday, January 26, 2005, at 11:19AM, Andres Guadamuz
<a.guadamuz AT ed.ac.uk> wrote:

>IMO, nothing could be done because there are strong philosophical and
>ethical principles embedded in open source and Creative Commons licences
>that enshrine freedom of expression and forbid any discrimination of fields
>of endeavour in the licence. For example, the CC baseline rights state that
>"other people's fair use, first sale, and free expression rights are not
>affected by the license". This certainly would include the BNP, even if the
>owner objects to the way in which their work is being used (or abused).

Yes.

Freedom of expression cuts both ways. The photographer can point out how
ridiculous the BNP would look using their photograph. That could be very
effective, indeed it could do more than the BNP *not* using the image if
handled well.

Given that a recent BNP christmas party turned away a black DJ who "sounded
white over the phone" when he was being booked, they seem to have their own
set of -erm- principles regarding the sources of cultural material that they
use...

>This is where moral rights would be useful, as in my opinion this could
>constitute "prejudice or damage to honour or reputation" in the sense of
the
>integrity right. However, I don't really want to re-open the moral rights
>can of worms, enough has been said about that in this list.

This is a case where they could be useful. And under the last CC-EW draft
with rights in it should be possible (IANAL). But people need to be careful,
as this would allow the BNP (for example) to exert the same control over
images *they* CC'd. Any method one can find of silencing one's own critics
in this way can presumably be used to silence oneself.

Aside from moral rights, making the work ND as well as NC to ensure that it
is not creatively cropped, montaged or labelled would be a good step.

The other possibility is an "exploit" mis-using the linkback URL
requirement. Provide a linkback URL containing the license *and* anti-racist
staements and links. That would hopefully put off anyone who didn't want to
provide free publicity against racism. If they didn't put the URL in, they'd
be breaking the license and couldn't use the image anyway.

Hmmm. Is that a hole that needs plugging in 3.0 ? :-)

- Rob.


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:04:44 -0000
From: Damian.Rafferty AT Culture.gsi.gov.uk
Subject: RE: [Cc-uk] What happens if...?
To: stuart.yeates AT computing-services.oxford.ac.uk
Cc: cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
        
<E26A2D6799DA7D49A6C669C6CD91B0AEDC13F5 AT dcms-tcrx.dept.culture.gov.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="windows-1252"

Thanks Stuart - so (if I have got this right) in the UK, your moral rights
would be non-waivable even under a CC license and so you could ask the BNP
(in this case) to remove your image as it could affect your reputation or
the reputation of the subjects of the picture?

Damian

-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Yeates
[mailto:stuart.yeates AT computing-services.oxford.ac.uk]
Sent: 26 January 2005 11:37
To: RAFFERTY DAMIAN
Cc: cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [Cc-uk] What happens if...?


http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880048_en_5.htm

Paragraph 80:

"80: (1) The author of a copyright literary, dramatic, musical or 
artistic work, and the director of a copyright film, has the right in 
the circumstances mentioned in this section not to have his work 
subjected to derogatory treatment.

     (2) For the purposes of this section-

        (a) "treatment" of a work means any addition to, deletion from 
or alteration to or adaptation of the work, other than-
              (i) a translation of a literary or dramatic work, or
              (ii) an arrangement or transcription of a musical work 
involving no more than a change of key or register; and

        (b) the treatment of a work is derogatory if it amounts to 
distortion or mutilation of the work or is otherwise prejudicial to the 
honour or reputation of the author or director;"

I believe that there are also the rights of subjects of such photos in 
these circumstances.

cheers
stuart

Damian.Rafferty AT Culture.gsi.gov.uk wrote:
> I have just had a query about a particular instance relating to one of our
> projects. Say  someone puts up a picture of their parents coming down from
> the steps of the SS Windrush and assigns a non-commercial license to it.
> Then the BNP take this image and uses it on their website to illustrate
> their objection to immigration. What can the original owner of the
copyright
> do, if anything, to remove the image from the BNP website?
> 
> Damian
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cc-uk-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:cc-uk-request AT lists.ibiblio.org]
> Sent: 24 January 2005 17:01
> To: cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Cc-uk Digest, Vol 12, Issue 12
> 
> 
> Send Cc-uk mailing list submissions to
>       cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>       http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-uk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>       cc-uk-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>       cc-uk-owner AT lists.ibiblio.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Cc-uk digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: examples of use of CC in commercial sector
>       (Desiree Miloshevic)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:37:10 +0000
> From: Desiree Miloshevic <dmiloshevic AT afilias.info>
> Subject: Re: [Cc-uk] examples of use of CC in commercial sector
> To: cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <41F4FA06.30207 AT afilias.info>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Hi -
> 
> Just a note to say that the other week I spoke to a board member of a 
> big design company in London re cc. They have a lot of students 
> (freelancers) who come in to do paid work, but the students keep 
> mentioning how they'd like to retain their IP rights, creating extra 
> legal work for the company, etc.
> 
> The company is willing to suggest the use of cc-UK license for the 
> students and thus promote cc.
> 
> We should encourage this particular use of cc in other creative 
> industries among the contacts that we have and/or build some awareness 
> campaign for students at universities?
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Did anyone hear about simliar activities or examples in any other 
> commercial or creative sector, that I can use?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Desiree Miloshevic
> --
> www.afilias.info/contact/
> www.isoc.org
> www.cpsr.net
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cc-uk mailing list
> Cc-uk AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-uk
> 
> 
> End of Cc-uk Digest, Vol 12, Issue 12
> *************************************
> 
> PLEASE NOTE: THE ABOVE MESSAGE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE INTERNET.
>  
> On entering the GSi, this email was scanned for viruses by the Government
> Secure Intranet (GSi) virus scanning service supplied exclusively by
Energis
> in partnership with MessageLabs.
>  
> Please see http://www.gsi.gov.uk/main/notices/information/gsi-003-2002.pdf
> for further details.
> 
> In case of problems, please call your organisational IT helpdesk
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
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> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-uk
> 
> 


-- 
Stuart Yeates            stuart.yeates AT computing-services.oxford.ac.uk
OSS Watch                                  http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk/
Humbul Humanities Hub                         http://www.humbul.ac.uk/

PLEASE NOTE: THE ABOVE MESSAGE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE INTERNET.
 
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In case of problems, please call your organisational IT helpdesk

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------------------------------

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PLEASE NOTE: THE ABOVE MESSAGE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE INTERNET.
 
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In case of problems, please call your organisational IT helpdesk

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This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
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