Development of Creative Commons licenses

["Gary (AUDN)" <gary AT audn.net>]

Greg, to pick up on your comment:

"If that's the case, then I see this idea as splitting hairs.
You are proposing to allow indirect commercial sales, but that is based off
the current way the music industry works by making most of its money off of
selling teh work directly.
If indirect sales are allowed, then direct sales doesn't give the customer
any benefit, other than, perhaps, location, and in the web, location is just
a URL away. It is a license, that if it succeeded in getting adopted
industry-wide, would render itself moot."

I disagree.
I think the term "indirect commercial sales" is misleading. I am not talking
internet download selling of a track. I'm talking about using a track in a
commercial venture such as on an internet radio station or in a restaurant
(which CC-BY_NC prohibits). A closer term would be "indirect commercial
exploitation" maybe. Even on a podcast, if the track is talked over this is
not selling a track, but simply is a recording of a radio show. For
enjoyment. 
Your second point, "if it is adopted industry-wide"... I'm also not saying
an artist should release all tracks under this license, but enough to be
able to get exposure.


Your other comment:
"Really, if a song is CC-BY-NC, has contact info, and a radio station wants
to play it, I don't think the license is a gating factor."

Sorry I couldn't disagree more. This is the exact problem.
If I wanted to start an internet radio station and sell advertising to keep
it going, then I *can not* use CC-BY-NC tracks as it is a commercial
venture. Full stop, that's what it says on the tin. 
Yes I can contact each artist in turn and ask them permission, but hey this
is the exact reason we have pre-defined licenses so we don't need to do
this. If I can use CC-BY-NC, then it's a case of redefining this license to
make it crystal clear.

I could play tracks released under CC-BY-ND, but the choice is far fewer. It
obvious why...  because tracks released under this license can be used for
any commercial venture, direct sales, TV advertising etc. Do you know how
much brands pay for music licensing for TV adverts etc? This is a world away
from Joe Bloggs wanting to start an internet radio station or podcast with
adverts.

CC-BY-NC in it's current form makes websites like www.podsafeaudio.com
useless for anyone who wants to make some money from their podcasts or
internet streams. 
And why should we allow people to make money:

- Quality of the podcasts/internet radio will improve (the person will have
more money to spend. He can do less of his current work and spend more time
on the venture).

- Internet radio/Podcasts will be more sustainable. The creators will not be
just people who have spare time on their hands.

- People can advertise their internet radio/podcasts and pay other people to
get involved. 

- Good ventures with good content can flourish and eventually be able to
compete against the corporations who are dominating most of our radio and
media landscape.


-----Original Message-----
From: cc-licenses-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:cc-licenses-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Greg London
Sent: 05 April 2006 01:35
To: Discussion on the Creative Commons license drafts
Subject: Re: [cc-licenses] Creative commons for music

That last bit should say:

Really, if a song is CC-BY-NC, has contact info, and a radio
station wants to play it, I don't think the license is a
gating factor.

(just to be clear)

> The way I see it, CC-NC is for generating
> fan-based word-of-mouth buzz about a work.
> Fans can pass the work around for free,
> post it on their websites, their blogs, etc.
> But record labels have to pay to play.
>
> When you say this:
>> Greg: CC-BY-ND would not provide the artists enough protection.
>
> I take that to mean you are looking at this
> Yet-Another-License as something along the same vein:
> something that generates buzz for the work,
> but retains commercial rights for a work to the original artist.
>
> If that's the case, then I see this idea as splitting hairs.
> You are proposing to allow indirect commercial sales, but
> that is based off the current way the music industry works
> by making most of its money off of selling teh work directly.
>
> If indirect sales are allowed, then direct sales doesn't
> give the customer any benefit, other than, perhaps, location,
> and in the web, location is just a URL away. It is a license,
> that if it succeeded in getting adopted industry-wide, would
> render itself moot.
>
> Since you seem to be focusing on what is essentially a
> buzz-generating license, and since the means for music
> distribution may be completely different in another
> couple years, I'd suggest going with a CC-BY-NC license,
> include a URL for attribution which contains the license
> information and your contact infomation such as email,
> and then add in your additional license to allow whatever
> specific mode of distribution you want to allow for that
> particular song.
>
> "This work is licensed CC-BY-NC. It is also licensed to
> be podcast blah, blah,"
>
> Really, if a song is CC-BY, has contact info, and a radio
> station wants to play it, I don't think the license is a
> gating factor.
>
>> Terry: I agree!
>>
>> This would be a license for "small businesses" - hey you could even put
>> this
>> into the clause somehow. This is putting power back to the cottage
>> industries.
>>
>> In a year or so time, we will have so many people making mediocre
>> podcasts
>> from shoestring budgets that the public will get bored. The commercial
>> corporations will watch what is successful and steal the best ideas -
>> but
>> steamroller the original guys with advertising and hype. Like they
>> always
>> do.
>> (There are some excellent podcasts out there, but how long will they
>> last
>> before they want to become commercial in some way. And why not, if it
>> keeps
>> the podcast running).
>>
>> Greg: If the license became so common place that most record labels were
>> using it on their music, I think that secondary sites, which could allow
>> downloads of the music for no direct costs and make their money on
>> advertising, and direct sales would drop
>>
>> I would like to see the license common place, but NOT all tracks would
>> be
>> on
>> the license. This would stimulate sales of CDs/downloads. Hey it's like
>> having a trial version of software, "try before you buy".
>> Plus - musicians make money from loads of other sources, merchandise and
>> tours.
>>
>> Greg: It'd be nice if everyone was on the same page as to what, exactly,
>> CC-NonCommercial meant before we went off and tried to create
>> Yet-Another-Incompatible-License-Option.
>>
>> Couldn't agree more. It's too fuzzy.
>> Websites like podsafeaudio.com are great, but as podcasts become more
>> commercial it makes a complete folly of the CC-NC license.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cc-licenses-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:cc-licenses-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Greg London
>> Sent: 04 April 2006 03:50
>> To: Discussion on the Creative Commons license drafts
>> Subject: Re: [cc-licenses] Creative commons for music
>>
>>
>>> On the contrary, I'd say it's very different: There's a lot of
>>> difference between "indirect" profit from the free sharing
>>> of a work and "direct" profit by controlling the distribution
>>> of the work.
>>
>> It'd be nice if everyone was on the same page as to what,
>> exactly, CC-NonCommercial meant before we went off and
>> tried to create Yet-Another-Incompatible-License-Option.
>> I can just imagine the CC-IN debate over the license
>> that would allow INdirect commercial use, but not direct
>> commercial use, and it makes my head hurt. Just thinking
>> about the NC definition makes my head hurt enough that
>> I've avoided further reading of CC's NC questionaire.
>>
>>> In fact, I think there's probably a lot of people who wouldn't
>>> care about the indirect profit issue as long as they could
>>> retain a monopoly on selling CDs or whatever medium they
>>> chose (or on per-track download fees).
>>
>> Except the person who originally brought up this idea
>> was talking about a "license for the record companies".
>> And when you look at it that way, the license doesn't scale.
>> If the license became so common place that most record
>> labels were using it on their music, I think that
>> secondary sites, which could allow downloads of the music for
>> no direct costs and make their money on advertising,
>> and direct sales would drop.
>>
>> (1) Go to www.majorrecordlabel.com and pay 80 cents
>> for a download or
>> (2) Go to www.musicondemand.com and get the song at no cost.
>>
>> as it is, I subscribed to Rhapsody almost a year ago,
>> for a flat fee of $8 a month, and I can listen to all
>> the music I want to hear there. I'm assuming that some
>> of my money is going back to the record company, and then
>> a small sliver of that is making its way to the artist.
>>
>> But if Rhapsody could give the music away for free
>> while making money on various advertising angles,
>> I'm sure they'd figure a way to make the numbers add up,
>> maybe use Peer-To-Peer networking to share the bandwidth
>> and storage among the various users or some such thing.
>>
>> The short of it being that if everyone licensed their
>> work to allow anyone to make indirect profit, then
>> I don't see direct profit having much of an income
>> potential.
>>
>> If nothing else, fans could host their favorite music,
>> and then a decent search engine could find the music
>> for free rather than go to the Record Label page and
>> pay for it. Yes, people could buy the work as a way
>> of giving alms, but if that argument were to scale,
>> then you could simply license the work CC-BY, let folks
>> sell it, and then wait for your true fans to come to
>> your site and give you money to keep playing.
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> btw: everything I say here is wrong
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> But clearly this is not the meaning of the current NC clause.
>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>>> --
>>> Terry Hancock (hancock AT AnansiSpaceworks.com)
>>> Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> cc-licenses mailing list
>>> cc-licenses AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-licenses
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bounty Hunters: Metaphors for Fair IP laws
>> http://www.greglondon.com/bountyhunters/
>> _______________________________________________
>> cc-licenses mailing list
>> cc-licenses AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-licenses
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> cc-licenses mailing list
>> cc-licenses AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-licenses
>>
>
>
> --
> Bounty Hunters: Metaphors for Fair IP laws
> http://www.greglondon.com/bountyhunters/
> _______________________________________________
> cc-licenses mailing list
> cc-licenses AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-licenses
>


-- 
Bounty Hunters: Metaphors for Fair IP laws
http://www.greglondon.com/bountyhunters/
_______________________________________________
cc-licenses mailing list
cc-licenses AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-licenses