Developer discussion for Creative Commons technology and tools

[Jonas Öberg <jonas AT coyote.org>]

Maarten,

yes, that's exactly what I had in mind :-)

Jonas

On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Maarten Zeinstra <mz AT kl.nl> wrote:
> Hi Jonas,
>
> Dogfooding is a good way to ensure that the tools that are developed can be 
> used by affiliates. Basically CC.org should consider themselves as an 
> affiliate itself. In such a way that when a new WP theme, license selection 
> tool, API, etc. are developed that cc.org uses the same codebase as 
> affiliates can use. That probably means that some of the current systems 
> need to be disentangled to be used separately and disseminated among 
> affiliates and activist. For example, make the license selection tool a 
> WP-plugin that can be used by all affiliate websites.
>
> I think we can agree that the licenses can be excluded from the dogfooding. 
> However, the deed pages should be considered as a product as well and that 
> product needs to be as transparent as possible. One of the reasons why this 
> thread started..
>
> Is that what you mean Jonas?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Maarten
>
> On Mar 5, 2013, at 8:21 , Jonas Öberg <jonas AT coyote.org> wrote:
>
>> Maarten,
>>
>> something that I've always been keen to put forward is the idea that
>> CC HQ ought to be using the same technology and tools as everyone
>> else. This means for instance that the license chooser used on cc.org
>> should not be different from the license chooser offered through the
>> partner interface (they should at least be built on the same
>> infrastructure) and the web site theme should be the same one used by
>> the affiliates, or at least inherited from it, and so on.
>>
>> Do you think, if doing so, that this might help? My hunch is that it
>> would necessitate a larger degree of openness and collaboration around
>> common assets, which would be good. I'm not sure to what extent that
>> would happen though: a lot of the work of regular maintenance and
>> infrastructure would logically fall on CC HQ, but we all know how
>> difficult it is to do infrastructure work if you only have manpower to
>> do fire fighting.
>>
>> Jonas
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 12:28 AM, Maarten Zeinstra <mz AT kl.nl> wrote:
>>> Thanks Bjorn,
>>>
>>> Another example that both Bjorn and I worked on in the past are Wordpress 
>>> Themes for Affiliates. It is silly that affiliates need to recreate 
>>> templates without support of CC International and that when we grab the 
>>> current theme of CC.org that the quality of the theme is lacking so much 
>>> that it needs a fundamental strip and rebuild before it can be used by 
>>> affiliates.
>>>
>>> Basically I am talking here about an askew relationship between tech 
>>> development for cc.org (basically cc US that pretends to represent the 
>>> globe) and its affiliates. Who (the affiliates) have turned to themselves 
>>> for development of tools, sites and other infrastructure as we see of the 
>>> low number of participants on this list.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Maarten
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 4, 2013, at 12:45 , BjornW <burobjorn AT gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> My experience as an external volunteer developer is the same as Maarten.
>>>> This actually made me more or less stop contributing to CC.
>>>> I'd also like to see a more future-proof solution where some thought has
>>>> been given to prevent the mistakes from the past, instead of quick 
>>>> 'fixes'.
>>>>
>>>> grtz
>>>> BjornW
>>>>
>>>> On 04-03-13 12:08, Maarten Zeinstra wrote:
>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no documentation for a start. It is a very value adding
>>>>> feature of the deed page but without documentation is probably
>>>>> sparsely used and hard to convince third parties to use RDFa to enrich
>>>>> their rights statements.
>>>>>
>>>>> But frankly and if you read closely this entire thread is not about
>>>>> the metadata scraper. It is about the lack of transparency, direction
>>>>> and general documentation, as well as leadership in the technical
>>>>> infrastructure of CC.
>>>>>
>>>>> The entire community basically consist of recent departures from the
>>>>> CC tech team and me. In recent years I've tried on multiple occasions
>>>>> to contribute on the codebase/ infrastructure of CC but I always run
>>>>> up to a barrier of having no central team that can support efforts to
>>>>> such an extent that is adds value.
>>>>>
>>>>> With this thread I don't want to hear quick fixes or answers to my
>>>>> direct questions. I want to receive some confirmation (in
>>>>> policy/roadmaps/support) that cc-technologies is not at a dead end.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Maarten
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 28, 2013, at 19:46 , Dan Mills <dan AT creativecommons.org
>>>>> <mailto:dan AT creativecommons.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Maarten,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I actually thought I'd sent a mail to this list, but indeed,
>>>>>> apparently I did not! So, let me fix that right away :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello. I'm Dan Mills, the new Director of Product Strategy at
>>>>>> Creative Commons. In short, I'm a technical product guy with roots in
>>>>>> open source and the Web. You can read a little more about me here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://creativecommons.org/staff#danmills
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More specifically on roadmap--I have been reviewing the existing
>>>>>> infrastructure and identifying the most urgent fixes we need to do,
>>>>>> while at the same time thinking about what the forward direction will
>>>>>> be and what kind of team we will need.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What are the burning issues with the scraper form your POV?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Maarten Zeinstra wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh come on!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That simply is not good enough.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We CC-affiliates / open activists need to be able to do our work. I
>>>>>>> raised this question because I do work for Europeana, The European
>>>>>>> version of the DPLA, but 5 years ahead. they were instrumental and
>>>>>>> the first adopter of the Public Domain Mark. Europeana works with
>>>>>>> 2600+ cultural institutions and has about 5 million works PD/CC0
>>>>>>> marked. Now when one of those institutions mails me and asked me why
>>>>>>> there is no extra metadata on PDM pages coming of Europeana, I need
>>>>>>> to be able to say that there is possibly a script blocker on the
>>>>>>> client side and that Europeana and CreativeCommons.org
>>>>>>> <http://creativecommons.org/> are functioning properly, see this
>>>>>>> page for more information (no page or documentation to be found...).
>>>>>>> When I cannot do that I cannot do my job. When I cannot do my job I
>>>>>>> cannot convince these institutions of the merit of CC licensing or
>>>>>>> PD marking. When I cannot do that they will be less likely to use
>>>>>>> the tools. That is bad for our global access to culture. (I use
>>>>>>> myself as an example, this could happen to anyone who wants to
>>>>>>> promote CC).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We all want more open content and correct rights labelling right? I
>>>>>>> need to be able to rely on that infrastructure of CC.org
>>>>>>> <http://cc.org/> to be able to do my job in this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is completely absurd that you cannot get your act together and
>>>>>>> provide us with a decent technological infrastructure and support to
>>>>>>> help convince the world that a) open content is a good way to go and
>>>>>>> b) rights labelling is important and c) (most importantly) we have
>>>>>>> their backs in that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, where is Dan Mills in all of this? He's been on the job for
>>>>>>> like two months now right? Why is it that he hasn't even introduced
>>>>>>> himself on this list yet? I hope he consider the licenses and their
>>>>>>> backing technology as part of the product of CC..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it is unbelievable that you can laconically state that you
>>>>>>> wish you had better answers…
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 27, 2013, at 18:15 , Greg Grossmeier <greg AT grossmeier.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:greg AT grossmeier.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <quote name="Maarten Zeinstra" date="2013-02-27" time="12:18:05 
>>>>>>>> +0100">
>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if there is a roadmap for the development of the
>>>>>>>>> metadata scraper of the deed pages.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is on a roadmap of some sorts; I can't remember the specific
>>>>>>>> timeline right now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As of now it only support RDFa, maybe we want to add other formats 
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> well?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is the idea, indeed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also I could find very little documentation about the workings of 
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> scraper directed at non-developers. Where can I point to when no
>>>>>>>>> scraped information shows up because of a script blocker?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nothing at this time :/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wish I had better answers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PS: As of Feb 19th, I now work for the Wikimedia Foundation, so my 
>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>> on these type of issues will be radically lower now.
>>>>>>>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2013-February/066672.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> | Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
>>>>>>>> | http://grossmeier.net <http://grossmeier.net/> A18D 1138 8E47
>>>>>>>> FAC8 1C7D |
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> met vriendelijke groet,
>>>> Bjorn Wijers
>>>>
>>>> * b u r o b j o r n .nl *
>>>> digitaal vakmanschap | digital craftsmanship
>>>>
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