Biblical Hebrew Forum

[John Leake <jesleake AT yahoo.co.uk>]

Thanks, Ishinan, for putting the time in to find me that information on cognates to miSr. I didn't claim the word miSr came from Iranian sources (an etymological unlikelihood), just that the madīna in early Islamic sources on Iran might refer to the shahrestān (Sasanian  planned cities tended to be circular, walled affairs). There is more to word use than etymology. As for the term miSr itself, it is used in particular for Basra and Kufa, the garrison cities of southern Iraq. My use of it here was perhaps a red herring.

The narrow meaning of madīna as citadel/walled city comes from Michael L. Bates, the early Islamic numismatist. His close reading of early Islamic sources suggests that madīna has this more specific meaning. He writes (in the Sogdian-L list):

 "No, madina never means city. Basra, Kufa, Baghdad, Fustat, among many others, were not madinas and were never labeled madina on coins or in texts (exceptions? please let me know). Madinat Rasul Allah was a madina, obviously. Mecca was not ever a madina.

The main difference is having a wall.

The early Arabic word for city is evidently balad.

It isn't clear when madina became a synonym for city."

He cites madā'in (Ctesiphon) as an example of a city with several medinas. 

I find this interesting and plausible though, as I say, I'm treating it with some caution.

But this has little to do with Hebrew. My point was rather was two-fold, first to show how Arabic and Hebrew borrow the same Aramaic term to describe different things, and second that you can't always trust a dictionary definition alone for a cognate even for common words, particularly for Arabic where the words tend to accrue meanings and where changed circumstances had led to rapid development of vocabulary on the first few centuries of Islam. And where our lexicons are based on the admirable medieval lexica (Arabic) which, however, were not really based on historical principles.

I'll have a look at Ullmann's Wörterbuch der Klasischen Arabischen Sprache later, and see if they've (1) got as far as mdn and (2) placed madīna under that root.

John Leake
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ان صاحب حياة هانئة لا يدونها انما يحياها

He who has a comfortable life doesn't write about it - he lives it

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On 29 Apr 2013, at 04:56, "Ishnian" <ishinan AT comcast.net> wrote:

John Leake wrote: In Aramaic, of course, mdīnā has the dual meaning of 'district' and 'city', while Arabic seems to have initially borrowed it more narrowly to mean a 'citadel' or 'walled city district'; it alternatively means a miSr, or 'capital', at least in former Sasanian territory where it perhaps signifies the shahrestān (provincial capital) of a district (shahr), what in New Persian becomes itself a shahr. Or so I gather. Interestingly, shahrestān is itself spelled מדינא in Middle Persian's Aramaizing orthography.

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Ishinan : What is YOUR Arabic source which refers 'madiynah' as a narrowly to mean a 'citadel' or 'walled city district'? 

Besides, the term 'Misr' has nothing to do with any former Sasanian territory.

 

As it stands the term 'Misr' has a Semitic origin in the Old Canaanite Ugaritic language and is also in found in AfroAsiatic (A.E.) probably a loan word from Semitic source.

 

First occurence: The term 'MiS.r' is found on the Ugaritic Clay tablets this provides the first evidence of the use of the term _MiS.r_. Within the mythology of the Ancient Near East, the Ugaritic deities are said to dwell in encampments .. these "encampments" are referred to as territories or strongholds. Hence, the deities were said to possess their own dwelling and their own territory which they called [mS.r). Source: Ugaritic Letters 49 KTU 1.3:V.7ff. Note that the encampment in this passage is [mSr). J.C. de Moor, Contributions to the Ugaritic Lexicon (1979) 

 

In B. Hebrew it cognates with the term "M'tsurah" (Metsoo-raw) referring to a mound, a rampart (for protection) or a fenced city, (M'tsowr has also the sense of a limit). Mtsuwrah (fenced) see 2 Chr 11:10, 2 Chr 11:23, 2 Chr 12:4, 2 Chr 14:6, 2 Chr 21:3.

In Ancient Egyptian "ms.r" (with a corrupted spelling in Wallis Budge's as 'Metcher' vol. I, p. 338) refers to a walled district, a name given to Egypt in respect of its double walls; See Spiegelberg in Recueil de travaux relatifs à la PHILOLOGIE ET A L'ARCHÉOLOGIE ÉGYPTIENNES et ASSYRIENES 21, 41.

 

In Arabic: _MSR_ meant a limit, or boundary between two lands. It also referred to a city or a town (see Arabic definitions below) .

The concordance in meanings, as well as the exact spelling survived unchanged from Ugaritic to Hebrew and Arabic attests to unbroken continuity.

Sorry, your suggestion for a Sassanian origin is incorrect. The same applies to Madiynah,. BTW. what is your exact reference for 'madiynah'. You are alluding its use in Middle Farsiy? Date and source?  I hope you are not referring to texts about Zoroastrian which date from the 9th to the 11th century.

Ishinan Ishibashi

وقال الليث: المِصْر في كلام العرب كل كُورة تقام فيها الحُدود ويقسم فيها الفيءُ  (*)

والمصر الحاجز بين الشيئين

كالماصِرِ، والحَدُّ بينَ الأَرْضَيْنِ، والوِعاءُ، والكُورَةُ،

، مَصَّر الأَمصارَ منها البصرة والكوفة. الجوهري: فلان مَصَّرَ الأَمْصارَ كما يقال مَدّن المُدُنَ

 

 

 

 

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