Biblical Hebrew Forum

[David Steinberg <david.l.steinberg AT rogers.com>]

Nb. The preterite can also be used in a past-perfect sense.  See 
Observations on Some Aspects of the Use of Tenses in Psalms 
<http://www.adath-shalom.ca/history_of_hebrew_psalmsTOC.pdf> ( 
http://www.adath-shalom.ca/history_of_hebrew_psalmsTOC.pdf ).

David Steinberg

On 11/03/2012 12:00 PM, b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>     1. Re: Psa 1,1f (George Athas)
>     2. Re: The Name "Haran" (rob acosta)
>     3. Re: The Name "Haran" (jimstinehart AT aol.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 06:15:00 +0000
> From: George Athas<George.Athas AT moore.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Psa 1,1f
> To: B-Hebrew<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:<CB828A42.19028%george.athas AT moore.edu.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> A few issues here:
>
> Firstly, Wayyiqtol is not not the only way for referring to the past. Qatal 
> can also be used. However, I would argue that even calling these conjugations 
> as past referring is a misunderstanding of the grammar.
>
> Karl argued that Hebrew is not marked for aspect, but then defined this as an 
> axis of completed/uncompleted action. That, however, is not so much 'aspect' 
> as it is 'Aktionsart'.
>
> Todd did raise the issue of clause initial verbs, which is an important 
> consideration. A negated verb can never be clause initial, because the 
> negation must precede it. So there is a pragmatic consideration here. But 
> even if we had three positive assertions being made in Ps 1.1, we would not 
> get wayyqitol verbs, because they would each produce narrative momentum. This 
> is not what the verse is trying to do, though. The use of Qatal verbs in this 
> clause is for the statement of simple fact: a man who has not walked? stood? 
> or sat? This is just what the Qatal does: state an action as a simple fact.
>
> The use of Yiqtol in 1.2 is simply to indicate the generality of the 
> righteous man's practice. These are actions that occur many times, and are 
> indicative of the past, as well as implying intention for the future.
>
>
> GEORGE ATHAS
> Director of Postgraduate Studies,
> Moore Theological College (moore.edu.au)
> Sydney, Australia
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 01:15:07 -0600
> From: rob acosta<robacosta AT hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The Name "Haran"
> To:<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:<SNT120-W22B53F08D10F6BC076B14BBB5A0 AT phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
> Mr Stinehart:
>
>      As usual your response to Mr Chavous was filled with misinformation. 
> We've covered this ground many times before, obviously to no avail, but as 
> briefly as possible let me offer this recap of real facts versus your 
> assertions for the benefit of those who are non students of  the Amarna 
> period.
>
>     1.Regarding your many references to Amarna Letter 155 as support for your 
> claim of the Great Syrian War in Year14 and Abimilek's relationship with 
> Abraham one must read the ENTIRE letter, but you focus on only Abimilek's 
> reference to Meritaten and the water crisis faced by Tyre.
>
>      According to Mr K.A. Kitchen ( Whom you've made clear whose conclusions 
> you dismiss) and many others this was Abimilek's FINAL letter to Pharaoh and 
> could NOT have been written LATER than Year 14 but possibly years earlier. At 
> the end Abimilek writes:
> "Behold, I go away with all thy ships and my whole city" after Zimredda's cut 
> off of access to three specific powerful springs still there today (not wells, ) made 
> life on Tyre impossible.
>      He is never heard from again. This wasn't some "over the top" missive 
> but a final desperate message.
>
>      2. Again, according to Mr Kitchen ("Suppiluliumas and the Amarna Pharaohs 
> "page 30) Abimilek's last letter(EA155) was written about TWO YEARS  AFTER the 
> Great Syrian War. As you now claim EA 155 was written in Year 13 (A month ago you said 
> Year 14)and it is your oft stated idea the Great Syrian War  took place in Year 14  
> (the foundation for your entire theory,) your new estimate of when EA 155 was written 
> now places the Syrian War in Year 11 or 12.
>      You have created a contradiction to your own theory.
>
>     3. You wrote: "There is a split in scholarly opinion as to whether Year 14 or 
> Year 12 is the historical date of that disastrous war, " Please name a scholar, 
> any scholar, who places the Great War in Year 14. I can find no one, but it is possible 
> I missed someone so please enlighten me. Estimates I've read range from as early as 
> Year 5 to Year12 which is the most commonly agreed upon. Again, by the time EA 155 is 
> written , the war is about 2 years in the past and Abimilek has already reported ( as 
> per instruction from Pharaoh)on the Great War and a number of events known to have 
> taken places after the war was over in earlier letters.
>     Are you claiming Mr Kitchen and many others are wrong in stating EA 155 
> is  Abimilek's last letter?
>
>     4. Mr Kitchen includes Cyril Aldred's 11 Year co regency theory amongst 
> the various theories for the year of the Great Syrian War and concludes, in 
> after offering much detail,  if Mr Aldred's theory is followed, the many 
> events in the Amarna letters makes it impossibe for that war to have taken 
> place either before or after Year 12.
> In other words an 11 Year co regency, which you subscribe to,  leaves only 
> Year 12 as the only possible year for the Great Syrian War. In short, you 
> adhere to a co regency theory that alone completely undermines your theory of 
> the Great Syrian war taking place in Year 14.
>
>     We now have two of of your favorite references, EA 155 and Aldred that 
> actually undermine your theory.
>
>     Any argument you may have is with Mr Kitchen or Mr Aldred, not with me. I 
> am just the messenger and I have read all your arguments before.
>
> Bottom line is there is a great chasm between your assertions and the 
> conclusions of known and respected scholars such as Mr Kitchen.
>
>   No one can go to a library or online and read Kitchen or Redford of 
> Campbell or anyone else and hope to find a single one of their conclusions 
> that lend credence to your assertions regarding Aziru, Abimilek or anyone 
> else. This is unfortunate.
> We should be able to trust SOME of the many things you assert is based on 
> sound research supported by scholars, but this is rarely the case.
>
>
> Rob Acosta
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                                         
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 08:56:28 -0400 (EDT)
> From: jimstinehart AT aol.com
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The Name "Haran"
> To: robacosta AT hotmail.com, b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID:<8CECD9D824588EE-1AA0-3D3 AT webmail-d143.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> Rob:
>
> Scholars split between Year 14 and Year 12 as the date of the Great Syrian 
> War in western Syria, with the majority view since 1990 probably being Year 
> 14.  K.A. Kitchen, writing in the early 1960s, tentatively suggested Year 12, 
> but there are good reasons why his dating is often rejected (as is his 
> peculiar 8-year co-regency theory, which no one accepts).  Much of Year 12 at 
> Amarna was spent having a grand durbar, which was a foreign tribute festival, 
> and having elaborate, gorgeous portrayals of that durbar done in two nobles? 
> rock tombs at Amarna.  It?s hard to believe that these triumphalist 
> portrayals of foreign tribute were being done at Amarna precisely when 
> Suppiluliuma was conquering all of northern Syria in Year 12!
>
> One major aspect of Amarna Letter EA 155 that you cite is almost certainly a 
> mistranslation.  "Behold, I go away with all thy ships and my whole city" is 
> said to apply to both Abimelek and Zimredda, but there?s no way that those rival 
> princelings in Lebanon were both fleeing.  Wm. Moran?s later translation is now 
> preferred, which sees this phrase as the princelings preparing boats for Egypt, not as 
> ?going away? with their ships.
>
> The bottom line is that I go with the many scholars who favor a Year 14 date 
> for the Great Syrian War in western Syria, which matches Genesis 14: 5 
> perfectly, rather than following Kitchen?s old, outdated view from the early 
> 1960s:
>
> (1)  ?[T]he Great Syrian campaign falls at the latest in years 14/15, but 
> conceivably as early as year 12?.?  Wm. J. Murnane, ?The Road to Kadesh? 
> (1990), p. 126.
>
> (2)  ?At some point in the reign, the Hittite King, Suppiluliuma, conducted a 
> major campaign in north Syria, seizing Egyptian vassal states.  This is 
> probably to be dated between years 12 and 14 of Akhenaten?s reign.?  Robert 
> Morkot, ?Historical Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Warfare? (2003), p. 5.
>
> The following statement of yours is peculiar:  ?Please name a scholar,
> any scholar, who places the Great War in Year 14. I can find no one, but it is
> possible I missed someone so please enlighten me.?  See Murnane and Morkot 
> quoted above.
>
> Jim Stinehart
> Evanston, Illinois
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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