Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Pere Porta <pporta7 AT gmail.com>]

I do not know about this verse or similar ones in the DSS.
Now, in Ex 13:17 we find נָחָם, which is the resulting of נָחָה + ם
If the first letter of the last word is to be a waw (and not a yod).......
what would then the sense of the proverb be?  I do not know, Karl.

Concerning your words that
«The LXX translation seems to indicate that the waw was there at that
time»... what is your ground for such an assertion?
The και clearly corresponds to the waw attached to סֶלֶף and not to the
hypotetical waw of the last word.

For your words:
«If the verb is נחם without a suffix, it would be used in a transitive
sense, but with an indeterminate object. As such, it should be a Qal binyan,
Yiqtol conjugation».
let me make two remarks:

1. Not "with an indeterminate object" but... "with no object" or "without an
object".
2. This verb is never used in the Qal. But it is used, yes, in the Pi'el
binyan.

Regards

Pere Porta
(Barcelona, Catalonia, Northeastern Spain)
2011/9/14 K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>

> Pere:
>
> The weather is one of the reasons I like living here. The high today should
> be about 19°C. Cool and comfortable.
>
> Thank you. The third person plural object suffix is used so seldom on lamed
> heh verbs that when the question came up, I just couldn’t think of any
> examples.
>
> I just checked with עשה one of the most common verbs in Hebrew usage, and
> found only twice where it had an appended third person plural object suffix
> on a third person singular use verb: as a Yiqtol in Qohelet 6:12, and as a
> Qatal in Isaiah 48:5, where it is also in parallel with the same form in
> צוה.
>
> So the question comes up, is this an example of נחה with an appended third
> person plural object, or נחם used as a transitive verb?
>
> If the verb is נחה with suffix, the context makes is pretty clear that it
> is the perfection of the upright leads them.
>
> If the verb is נחם without a suffix, it would be used in a transitive
> sense, but with an indeterminate object. As such, it should be a Qal binyan,
> Yiqtol conjugation.
>
> Other examples of transitive usage include Genesis 5:29, 50:21, or as a
> transitive in a reflexive way Genesis 27:42, 37:35.
>
> נחם can also be used as an intransitive verb, such as Genesis 6:6–7.
>
> Just from the form, we cannot tell which word is meant. Now comes clues
> from the context.
>
> The LXX is not much help here, αποθανων δικαιος ελιπεν μεταμελον προχειρος
> δε γινεται και επιχαρτος ασεβων απωλεια.
>
> Are there any examples from the DSS that can clarify this verse? If so,
> what do they say?
>
> If we assume, as did the Masoretes, that we are dealing with a copyist
> error, that the first letter of the last word should be a yod, then we have
> a simple oppositional parallelism, “but [the] bending out of shape of
> those who deal underhandedly does them violence.” The parallelism favors
> the נחה with suffix.
>
> If, however, this is not an example of a copyist error, but that the waw at
> the beginning of the last word was original, then how do we read the
> proverb? That’s what my original post addressed. The LXX translation seems
> to indicate that the waw was there at that time.
>
> Thanks for considering the question.
>
> Yours, Karl W. Randolph.
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Pere Porta <pporta7 AT gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> (PP)
>> Well, everything is right at home. Only a too much hot September...
>>
>
>>
>>
>>>  (KR)
>>>  I appears that we should look at this step by step, and the first one
>>> is your point #4 above: what does the first half of the verse mean?
>>>
>>> תנחם is the verb in question. There is no question that it is a Yiqtol
>>> third person singular feminine verb. The question is, which one? I see 
>>> three
>>> possibilities:
>>>
>>> 1) נוח to rest. But in this context it should be a Hiphil תניחם which it
>>> isn’t.
>>> 2) נחה to lead. Correct me if I am wrong, but would not the form here be
>>> תנחיהם if it were from the root נחה? Can you give any examples of a lamed
>>> heh verb in the Yiqtol fem sing with a masc plural suffix where the heh is
>>> merely dropped?
>>> 3) נחם to regret, to feel sorry (for) ⇒ to sympathize, comfort where I
>>> understand it in this context as its derivative meaning of sympathizing,
>>> comforting.
>>>
>>> After answering this question, then we can go on to the next one.
>>>
>>>
>> (PP)
>>
>> Answering to your three questions:
>>
>> 1) Verb נוח is thus put aside or discarded.
>> 2) In a general way, verbs lamed-heh drop the heh before taking a suffix.
>> I've no exact sample fitting the pattern of our word. But there are many
>> which are quite parallel to it:
>>
>> a) in the 3rd p. s. m. + suffix M:
>>
>> 1) Qal ------------ in Ps 28:5; in Ps 49:15...
>> 2) Hiph'il-------- in Jdg 1:25
>>
>>
>>  b) in the 3rd p. s. m. + suffix K:
>>
>> 1) Qal ------------ in Mal 1:8
>> 2) Hiph'il-------- in Jdg 1:25
>>
>> If necessary, I'd provide some other.
>>
>> 3) This is a real possibility from a grammar viewpoint, in the line of the
>> third word (from the end) in 2Ki 6:29.
>> But there is here, methinks, a big problem: verb נחם is never used in the
>> Hiph'il in the Hebrew bible.
>> Would it, then, be a Pi'el in the line of  תלקט in Ruth 2:15? Or in the
>> line of תברך in Nm 22:6?
>> If so, yes, the meaning of the first part of the verse would be: “the
>> perfection of the upright comforts”, as you wrote.
>> Then, yes, the pointing ought to be as it is in תְּחַלֶּק (Ps 68:13),
>> (without dagesh, of course).
>> Summing up: תנחם could be a Pi'el, this is a possibility... But it seems
>> to me that "guide them" or "is a guide for them" fits much better than
>> "comforts" as for the sense of this first part of the verse.
>> Having to choose between:
>> --The perfection of the upright guides them (or themselves)
>> and
>> --The perfection of the upright comforts
>> I lean to the first translation, mainly because doing so the parallel with
>> the second part of the verse is fully held up: remark that the last word in
>> the verse has a final mem too (= them).
>>
>>
>> (KR)
>>
>>>  Do you agree that this is the best way to tackle this question?
>>>
>>> (PP)
>> Yes.
>>
>> Regards from
>>
>>>
>>> Pere Porta
>>> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Northeastern Spain)
>>>
>>
>


-- 
Pere Porta