Biblical Hebrew Forum

[David Kolinsky <yishalom AT sbcglobal.net>]

--- On Thu, 3/17/11, David Kolinsky <yishalom AT sbcglobal.net> wrote:

From: David Kolinsky <yishalom AT sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ra`yon and `inyan and what can be learned
To: "K Randolph" <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 12:27 AM

Karl,

With regard to what is written below, suffice it to say that I disagree with 
much of it.  However, I have given it some consideration (as much as I have 
time for).  And I will say that I have revised my understanding of Jb 139:17, 
 I see it now as this: "Your eyes have seen my unformed-lump, and upon your 
recounting is all of them ((meaning: It is upon G-d, his task, to have 
oversight of all of the unformed lumps of humanity)), they shall be impressed 
(blueprinted so to speak), it will be a matter of days- they shall be formed. 
 And with regard to it (my lump), it is but one among them.  And with regard 
to me, how precious are those that you are mindful of ( vs those you take 
delight in).  How densely packed (vs numerous) are their heads.  Were I
 to count them, they are more numerous then the sand.  I awaken (meaning: 
come to life) and enduringly, I am with you."

So you see, although we do not agree with the translation, necessarily, you 
have been successful to some degree in changing my opinion about its meaning.

If there others on the list, not sick of our posts, I would love to hear 
others opinions about this translation.

I do not have time to comment on all your other points, unfortunately.
Count it as a partial win for you.

Cordially,'

David Kolinsky
Monterey, CA

--- On Wed, 3/16/11, K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com> wrote:

From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ra`yon and `inyan and what can be learned
To: "David
 Kolinsky" <yishalom AT sbcglobal.net>
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2011, 5:01 PM

David:
>From your response, I see that there are places where people will disagree 
>based on their understanding. How much are your responses based on the 
>Masoretic points, which I have found to be untrustworthy (similar to looking 
>at cognate languages, sometimes giving insights, usually unimportant, 
>sometimes can lead astray)? How much of your response is based on tradition?


רעע in my understanding has also an active meaning, “making displeasing” 
which can be affected through breaking, marring, distorting, going bad, etc.


On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 4:04 PM, David Kolinsky <yishalom AT sbcglobal.net> 
wrote:




Karl:  For the most
 part, I also rely on the Tanakh to inform my understanding of Biblical 
Hebrew.So here is a list from the Tanakh
1b to shout (Is16:10) 
So how does לא ירעע יין refer to shouting? From the context it sounds like 
that wine won’t go bad because there won’t be any.


 
2b - Ra(a( (רעע) - to VIBRATE (move back and forth),           shatter / 
impair (Jr15:12) ,           be broken down (Jr15:12)(Jb34:24) 



Where do you get VIBRATE (move back and forth) from? I have yet to find that 
meaning anywhere. Especially not in these verses.

Jeremiah הירע ברזל ברזל מצפון ונחשת Here we recognize that steel is meant, 
does not steel make displeasing (by breaking, disfiguring) steel from the 
north and bronze?


Job ירע כבירים לא-חקר    ויעמד אחרים תחתם he makes displeasing (by breaking, 
tearing, disfiguring) blankets without number (not
 investigated) and he makes others take their place. 


 


3a - Ra( (רע) - perception, thought  (Ps139:2,17) 
2 אתה ידעת שבתי וקומי    בנתה לרעי מרחוק  you know my settling down and my 
rising up, it is built up for my feeding from a distance. God knows so that 
he can provide for us even from afar. I can see where you get your 
understanding, but I question it, yet at the same
 time I am not happy with how I understand it. Neither are smooth from the 
Hebrew. For your reading, this is not the normal second person singular in a 
context full of normal second person singular verbs. Are there any alternate 
readings for this verse? The LXX follows your understanding.



17 ולי—מה-יקרו רעיך אל    מה עצמו ראשיהם how precious to me are your 
neighbors God, how numerically mighty are their heads ? I.e. those who 
surround God are precious and mighty (angels?).




3b - Ra(aH (רעה) - to welcome, befriend, desire, take delight in, enjoy       
MaR(aH   companion (Jd14:20); to enjoy (Ps37:3)  



Judges 14:20 ותהי אשת שמשון למרעהו אשר רעה לו and Samson’s woman became to 
his friend who was a neighbor to him (better translation: Samson’s wife 
became his neighbor and friend’s wife)


Psalm 37:3  בטח ביהוה ועשה-טוב    שכן-ארץ ורעה אמונה  have confidence in the 
LORD and do that which is pleasing, dwell the land and feed on 
trustworthiness (faith) where I see poetic use of words in parallel with 
having confidence in the LORD. This is not a literal, physical feeding on, 
rather indicating where spiritual strength
 comes from.







Cordially,
David KolinskyMonterey CA
I still don’t see where 1b, 2b and 3b can be substantiated, and 3a I find 
questionable. One verse that can be questioned is hardly a proof.

There is another verb, ירע YR( that we haven’t discussed so far in this 
interchange, which has the meaning of flapping in the wind, from which 
curtain is derived. Some of the conjugations of that verb are identical (in 
an unpointed text) to some conjugations from R(( and R(H.

Karl W. Randolph.

>From if AT math.bu.edu  Thu Mar 17 07:18:58 2011
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From: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:18:56 -0400
To: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
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Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] ra`yon and `inyan and what can be learned
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What?! He tears up blankets? He is in the wholesale shmates business?

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Mar 16, 2011, at 8:01 PM, K Randolph wrote:

> Job ירע כבירים לא-חקר    ויעמד אחרים  
> תחתם he makes displeasing (by breaking,
> tearing, disfiguring) blankets without number (not investigated)  
> and he
> makes others take their place.